The World without Religion

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Originally posted by compmage:
I remember reading somewhere that atheists are the most hated group in the States, gay people are more acceptable. I can't remember where I read this and I can't seem to find it again, anyone know where its from?

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This matters little to me though since I'm not from north America.

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Interesting... having lived in the US all my life, I am having trouble with the statement that atheists are the most hated group here. Most people I know don't understand but don't much care either.------------------
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Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
there was no big bang knowing God it was a little bang.

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Are you aware of the irony of this statement?

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Athiesm is acceptable.

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Appreciate that.

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But the easy way out always is.

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The easy way out? You mean like a really old book told me so? Get a grip, Funkie. Religion is the ultimate easy out. You needn't think, just obey. And this is especially true of christianity, which flat out teaches believers not to question and compares them to sheep. Have you ever met a sheep? Sheep are STUPID. VERY VERY STUPID. I don't know why you guys are so proud of the association.

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A gay atheist would be the most loved and most likely to get a job with no other reason than that they are gay and athiest.

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Take a shot at it, Funkie. You'll find that you are full of crap.

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In north america if you are a gay atheistic minority you're laughing.

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You must be joking? Homosexuals get beaten a lot and sometimes killed and the laws of the country are so saturated with judeo-christianity that it blows the mind.

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Tolerance is the way, we must be tolerant to everything but christianity.

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Christianity gets more slack than it deserves, imho.

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And then say we're not singling out christianity. And don't give me some lie saying otherwise or ask me to back this up..

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I don't see any other religions in this country tying to get religion taught as science, nor do I see other religions pushing legislation that is nothing but a thinly veiled attempt to generate a state religion.

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If you want proof peel the blind off of your eyes and look around.

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Try it yourself big guy.

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There is no World without religion you never had the choice.

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???????

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I personally hate religion.

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Good.

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Religion= a set of guidlines to attain salvation. Garbage right from there.

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I love to see this argument. You've just undercut your entire faith. So we can toss out all those irritating rules in the OT? And those guidelines in the NT? And that believe-in-jesus-to-get-to-heaven rule? Cool. Anarchy!!!!!!

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Religion is garbage Jesus Christ on the other hand is salvation so throw religion out the window.

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I really really very much want to see you work this out into something practical.------------------
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Originally posted by Quetzal:
I would say that, since pattern recognition is a property of our perceptual system (especially vision), then it would be fairly easy to imagine an organism on another planet that has a different system.

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Hey Quetzal,But whatever system we imagine, we are still talking about pattern recognition, yes?------------------
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Originally posted by Quetzal:
Hmm, not necessarily, or at least not in the sense I think robin meant. The vibratory, electric and even sonar systems are more intensity and frequency detection rather than pattern recognition per se.

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And you consider this to not be a form of pattern recognition? I confused. Seems like with sound, vibration, or whatever the trick is to detect the pattern.

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Besides, there's no reason to think that a critter with a completely different biology and form of intelligence wouldn't be just as screwed up as we humans are...

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No doubt. ------------------
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Originally posted by Quetzal:
I have no way of proving that the "pattern recognition" is simply related to the way our brains have evolved to process incoming information - and I have no way of proving that either the organisms I mentioned or our hypothetical alien critter DON'T have something similar that could be called "pattern recognition".

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Granted. Neither you not I can prove anything (until I get my warp drive working. I made it out of old tires )

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Let me put it to you this way: does vibration detection in Bothrops provide a recognizable pattern to the snake, or is it merely a rough measure of distance, direction, small-enough-to-eat or too-big-to-mess-with?

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If it DIDN'T produce a recognizable pattern would the snake be able gain any information at all? If there is no pattern of some kind, there is no information, IMLTHO. It would be like watching the white fuzz on an old TV. Patterns are information, thus pattern recognition is by default a requirement of, probably, anything alive more complex than a virus (maybe).

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You tell me... I think that's what I was trying to get at - after all, we're talking aliens here, so I'm alowed to speculate without evidence.

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Oh yes indeed.BTW, I like your UBB tags. Maybe we should try to get them implemented and strictly enforced.------------------
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Originally posted by robinrohan:
However, for me to agree they would have to agree that chimps or whatever are totally conscious in the human sense, because that is the only sense there is.

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Why is human-like consciousness the only consciousness there is? How did you come to that conclusion and how does one test it? It doesn't make any sense. My dogs are most definitely aware both of there surroundings and of themselves. I know this because they exhibit all of the behaviors indicative of such. Of course, you could call it a purely Pavlovian response, but I could make the same call regarding human behavior, as did the psychologist B. F. Skinner.

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Suppose dogs are unconscious. Physically, the same thing happens when they see something as with us (more or less), but it would be very accurate to say they don't actually "see" because there is no mental leap.

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You think that dogs don't see? How do you know this? A dog, or anything else, must have a functional mental image of its surroundings or it couldn't stay alive. This image could be constructed from light, vibartion, echolocation, electromagnetism, whatever. But it must exist or the creature would have bearings, no contact with the world it lives in and hence no food and no mates.

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There can be no consciousness without self-consciousness, without a sense of "me."

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Maybe, but self-consciousness is not limited to humans. Some non-human animals have a sense of self.

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Because without a sense of "me" we can't "see." We have to be able to realize that what we are looking at is a separate object from the "me." (We never see the "me." The "me" is the point we are looking from).

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On the one hand you argue that humans are the only conscious animals and on the other you argue that consciousness is a requisite for seeing. Then it follows that animals don't see, which is absurd.------------------
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Originally posted by zipzip:
Although I agree completely with your post, it *is* true that humans have the (spontaneous) facility of formal grammatical language, sophisticated tool use, and (societal and individual) behavioral characteristics suggesting cognitive capabilities unique in the animal kingdom. Perhaps there is something there to examine in more detail?

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Humans no doubt use cognitive tools more than any other critter on the planet, certainly, though some animals come close.

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I agree completely with your assertion that dogs are definitely self-aware, and in the strictest sense! That is why I avoid them at all costs -- they strike me as frightfully immoral with all their public nudity, defecation, and indiscriminant sexual activity. When I was a boy, our family's dog *absolutely refused* to wear pants. Have these creatures no shame?

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Wow. Those are all the reasons I like them. ------------------
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Originally posted by Quetzal:
I would argue that dogs are NOT self aware - show a dog itself in a mirror, and it will identify the image as another dog - not itself. On the other hand, CATS are by far and away the best argument for the existence of pure evil I've ever encountered.

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Hmmm... the dog part was my contribution so...I don't think my pups have ever encountered a mirror, but that does sound like great fun. (oh yes it was!!! hehehehehe!!! BTW, my dogs agree with you) But I am not convinced that this is a clincher for the claim that dogs are not self-aware. If I am not mistaken, the recognition of one's reflection is learned, even among humans. I'm betting that if I leave that mirror sitting on the floor they'd eventually figure it out. What I base my opinion of doggie self-awareness upon is the way they react when they've done something wrong, even when I don't know about it and even if I have been gone all day and many hours have passed sinced the dirty deed. They give themselves away. This requires some cognitive sense of self.As for cats.... yeah, pure evil, but they are SO cute when they stick a canine tooth all the way through your fingernail.------------------
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Originally posted by robinrohan:
Could it be that you, John, are engaging in a sentimentality about your pets (I share the feeling)?

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I am sentimental about my pups, but I do not think I am anthropomorphizing them.

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If they are self-aware, then what is missing from their brains?

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Nothing. We have essentially the same brains, but different configurations of the various parts.

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Why do they not do what people do?

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My point, robinrohan, is that they do do many of the things that people do.

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You know something that all little kids do? They draw pictures. Why don't dogs do this? You might say, they are not physically equipped, but they could do it in a doggy way. They could draw little pictures with their paws in the mud.

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And you start this post with the suggestion that I am anthropomorphizing my dogs?You might as well ask why ants don't make termite hills, or why cats don't burrow underground. Or why we in the US don't eat our dead?

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I think what is missing is mentality.

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Meaning what exactly? (I am almost afraid to ask)

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You tell me.

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If it were only that easy.

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Quetzal, if dogs are not self-aware and chimps are, does that not suggest a sudden break rather than a continuum?

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Dogs and chimps are not side by side on the continuum. The difference appears like a break because all the intermediates are missing.

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Do chimps draw pictures?

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Yes, actually they do draw primitive pictures. Page not found | Animal Welfare Institute------------------
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Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
Yeah and if there were people all day with a dog attempting to tain it to sign and make scribbles on paper I'm sure a dog is capable of the same.

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I am assuming that you are talking about the chimps drawing. I actually don't think that dogs are capable of the same things that chimps do on a daily basis. Apes in general, and chimps in particular, do some amazing things. They are more like us than most people imagine, or us like them.------------------
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Originally posted by robinrohan:
John, my example about drawing pictures was meant to indicate a crucial difference between dogs and humans. Drawing pictures is an indication of the ability to abstract--in other words, to think symbolically.

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I think what you've got is an extreme and specialized example of symbolic thinking, but what you don't have is evidence that there is a sharp break or cognitive leap. Animals of any complexity couldn't function without some form of abstract thought, symbolic thought. At the very basic level, the association of a sound with a type of predator is symbolic thought. Even such things as vision or echolocation is a form of abstraction.

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If you point your finger at something you want your dog to pay attention to, the dog will sniff your finger, not follow the symbolic line of the pointed finger. For a dog, a finger is a finger, not a pointer.

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Dogs aren't capable of the particular abstraction you describe. At least, I can't think of a contradictory observation. It doesn't follow that they are incapable of any symbolic thought.

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The ability to think symbolically is an indication of the ability to abstract (in fact,it's the same thing). I would also maintain that the ability to abstract is an indication of consciousness.

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Ok. But I don't agree that the ability to abstract equals the ability to abstract AS HUMANS DO. Its a continuum and we sit at one end of it relative to the other critters on earth.------------------
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Originally posted by robinrohan:
I'm just wondering what partial self-awareness would consist of. It seems to me that you are either aware of yourself or you are not.

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Well, drink enough and I think it is fair to say that you are at best only partially self-aware. If such a state can be induced, I don't see why it couldn't exist as a natural condition in some species.------------------
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Originally posted by Quetzal:
Hee. I didn't see this before. Well done, John! I've long maintained that, given the genetic closeness of our nearest cousins, there's no justification for proclaiming them a separate genus. It should either be Homo troglydites or maybe Pan sapiens. Wouldn't that send the creationists into screaming fits.

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Yeah. I think it is more human psychology than hard evidence that prevents what you suggest from being widely considered. Though it has been considered. A primatology professor mentioned something similar when I was in school ten years ago.------------------
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Originally posted by robinrohan:
Yes, I think the develop of consciousness in babies is sudden. We don't remember anything that happened to us before age 3 or so and the reason is possibly that we are unconscious.

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I have virtually no memories before the age of maybe ten. I have fragments of memory. Don't get me wrong. Was I unconscious that most of those years?------------------
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Originally posted by robinrohan:
Apparently, John, you were either unconscious or intermittently conscious. Perhaps something happened that wiped those memories out.

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I wasn't sure how you would answer, but there is a problem either way. As it is, it is impossible to determine whether a person or thing is conscious. Hence any arguments that depend on that loose their teeth. You could ask my parents, my sister, or my friends if I was conscious. They would all say yes. You could watch home movies made by my father, and I appear to be conscious in every way that I could apply to you if I were to observe you from a distance. But there is no way to know for sure, even among humans.------------------
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