|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: The World without Religion | |||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: Interesting... having lived in the US all my life, I am having trouble with the statement that atheists are the most hated group here. Most people I know don't understand but don't much care either. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: Are you aware of the irony of this statement?
quote: Appreciate that.
quote: The easy way out? You mean like a really old book told me so? Get a grip, Funkie. Religion is the ultimate easy out. You needn't think, just obey. And this is especially true of christianity, which flat out teaches believers not to question and compares them to sheep. Have you ever met a sheep? Sheep are STUPID. VERY VERY STUPID. I don't know why you guys are so proud of the association.
quote: Take a shot at it, Funkie. You'll find that you are full of crap.
quote: You must be joking? Homosexuals get beaten a lot and sometimes killed and the laws of the country are so saturated with judeo-christianity that it blows the mind.
quote: Christianity gets more slack than it deserves, imho.
quote: I don't see any other religions in this country tying to get religion taught as science, nor do I see other religions pushing legislation that is nothing but a thinly veiled attempt to generate a state religion.
quote: Try it yourself big guy.
quote: ???????
quote: Good.
quote: I love to see this argument. You've just undercut your entire faith. So we can toss out all those irritating rules in the OT? And those guidelines in the NT? And that believe-in-jesus-to-get-to-heaven rule? Cool. Anarchy!!!!!!
quote: I really really very much want to see you work this out into something practical. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: Hey Quetzal, But whatever system we imagine, we are still talking about pattern recognition, yes? ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: And you consider this to not be a form of pattern recognition? I confused. Seems like with sound, vibration, or whatever the trick is to detect the pattern.
quote: No doubt. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: Granted. Neither you not I can prove anything (until I get my warp drive working. I made it out of old tires )
quote: If it DIDN'T produce a recognizable pattern would the snake be able gain any information at all? If there is no pattern of some kind, there is no information, IMLTHO. It would be like watching the white fuzz on an old TV. Patterns are information, thus pattern recognition is by default a requirement of, probably, anything alive more complex than a virus (maybe).
quote: Oh yes indeed. BTW, I like your UBB tags. Maybe we should try to get them implemented and strictly enforced. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: Why is human-like consciousness the only consciousness there is? How did you come to that conclusion and how does one test it? It doesn't make any sense. My dogs are most definitely aware both of there surroundings and of themselves. I know this because they exhibit all of the behaviors indicative of such. Of course, you could call it a purely Pavlovian response, but I could make the same call regarding human behavior, as did the psychologist B. F. Skinner.
quote: You think that dogs don't see? How do you know this? A dog, or anything else, must have a functional mental image of its surroundings or it couldn't stay alive. This image could be constructed from light, vibartion, echolocation, electromagnetism, whatever. But it must exist or the creature would have bearings, no contact with the world it lives in and hence no food and no mates.
quote: Maybe, but self-consciousness is not limited to humans. Some non-human animals have a sense of self.
quote: On the one hand you argue that humans are the only conscious animals and on the other you argue that consciousness is a requisite for seeing. Then it follows that animals don't see, which is absurd. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: Humans no doubt use cognitive tools more than any other critter on the planet, certainly, though some animals come close.
quote: Wow. Those are all the reasons I like them. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: Hmmm... the dog part was my contribution so... I don't think my pups have ever encountered a mirror, but that does sound like great fun. (oh yes it was!!! hehehehehe!!! BTW, my dogs agree with you) But I am not convinced that this is a clincher for the claim that dogs are not self-aware. If I am not mistaken, the recognition of one's reflection is learned, even among humans. I'm betting that if I leave that mirror sitting on the floor they'd eventually figure it out. What I base my opinion of doggie self-awareness upon is the way they react when they've done something wrong, even when I don't know about it and even if I have been gone all day and many hours have passed sinced the dirty deed. They give themselves away. This requires some cognitive sense of self. As for cats.... yeah, pure evil, but they are SO cute when they stick a canine tooth all the way through your fingernail. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: I am sentimental about my pups, but I do not think I am anthropomorphizing them.
quote: Nothing. We have essentially the same brains, but different configurations of the various parts.
quote: My point, robinrohan, is that they do do many of the things that people do.
quote: And you start this post with the suggestion that I am anthropomorphizing my dogs? You might as well ask why ants don't make termite hills, or why cats don't burrow underground. Or why we in the US don't eat our dead?
quote: Meaning what exactly? (I am almost afraid to ask)
quote: If it were only that easy.
quote: Dogs and chimps are not side by side on the continuum. The difference appears like a break because all the intermediates are missing.
quote: Yes, actually they do draw primitive pictures.
Page not found | Animal Welfare Institute ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: I am assuming that you are talking about the chimps drawing. I actually don't think that dogs are capable of the same things that chimps do on a daily basis. Apes in general, and chimps in particular, do some amazing things. They are more like us than most people imagine, or us like them. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: I think what you've got is an extreme and specialized example of symbolic thinking, but what you don't have is evidence that there is a sharp break or cognitive leap. Animals of any complexity couldn't function without some form of abstract thought, symbolic thought. At the very basic level, the association of a sound with a type of predator is symbolic thought. Even such things as vision or echolocation is a form of abstraction.
quote: Dogs aren't capable of the particular abstraction you describe. At least, I can't think of a contradictory observation. It doesn't follow that they are incapable of any symbolic thought.
quote: Ok. But I don't agree that the ability to abstract equals the ability to abstract AS HUMANS DO. Its a continuum and we sit at one end of it relative to the other critters on earth. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: Well, drink enough and I think it is fair to say that you are at best only partially self-aware. If such a state can be induced, I don't see why it couldn't exist as a natural condition in some species. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: Yeah. I think it is more human psychology than hard evidence that prevents what you suggest from being widely considered. Though it has been considered. A primatology professor mentioned something similar when I was in school ten years ago. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: I have virtually no memories before the age of maybe ten. I have fragments of memory. Don't get me wrong. Was I unconscious that most of those years? ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: I wasn't sure how you would answer, but there is a problem either way. As it is, it is impossible to determine whether a person or thing is conscious. Hence any arguments that depend on that loose their teeth. You could ask my parents, my sister, or my friends if I was conscious. They would all say yes. You could watch home movies made by my father, and I appear to be conscious in every way that I could apply to you if I were to observe you from a distance. But there is no way to know for sure, even among humans. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024