The egg came first

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The offspring must be of a different species from at least one of the parents.

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I don't believe that hybrid animals are even classified as species, particularly since they don't form populations. But I could be wrong. Nonetheless you raise an interesting point.

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Are you certain about that? Look at all the different breeds of domesticated dogs and cats. They are so different that certainly they merit different species names. What about laboratory mice? There are hundreds of strains bred for specific uses. Each one is different because it has different genetic features that help with different experiments. It matters not that man induced the change, one species begat another. (I did have one person tell me that when change is caused by man, it is not evolution. It can only be evolution when it ocuurs in nature. I was amazed that an otherwise intelligent person would accept such nonsense.)Is there some place in the rules and guidelines about giving formal names to living things that excludes hybrid? I don't know much at all about orchids, but I do know that those who grow orchids mix and match to get new varieties and then provide these new varieties with new species names.I am concerned that I am becoming obnoxious about all this. I suppose that this thread should come to end soon, resolved or not.

from message 103:

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When did I say that they couldn't? Of course species give rise to other species. Where else do the new species come from?

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Did I miss-uderstand this from messsage 96:

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Indeed. And, while it's certainly the case that the decendant of the modern chicken was a red junglefowl, at no point did a red junglefowl give birth to a chicken; at no point can a parent be said to have given birth to an offspring of a different species.

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But to be fair, I think my memory was a bit faulty as I was thinking of a post by John in which that was said.

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It would be impossible to say, or at least, impossible for us to agree. That's rather my point. You might say it happened here, and I might say it happened three generations later there, and there would be no way to determine which of us was right.

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I agree. The naming of species is not and probably cannot be an exact science. After all, it is something imposed by humans. Nature does not catalog anything.But I do feel a tiny big ignored on one point. I keep saying that evolution in the sense for individuals occurs when the sperm and egg meaning the one cell unfertilized entity in the female) meet. Based on that, the egg (meaning the laid spheriod) deserved the name chicked before an adult did.Regardless, this thread has gone on long enough. Thanks for some good thoughts.

I am not particularily comfortable with the prodigious part of that, but I do thank you for the compliment. The conversation with you has been enjoyable and you presented more than a few thoughts new to me.I made a comment in another thread that was widely ignored and posted it in the proposed threads under the title "A proof against ID and Creationism" The first reviewer was not at all impressed. The concept seems rather powerful to me. Considering the lack of any response, there is obviously something I have missed. Would you be so kind as to take a look there and give me a critique.Thank you.

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Have I helped at all?

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Yes. After reading that I ocassioned on a nice summary. Refering to my 1000 generations with a red jungle fowl and one end and a chicken at the other: Put a pair of brackets around the left end that is called red jungle fowl, and another pair on the other end around the chicken on the right end. Then stretch the species definition of each enough to move the inside brackets together until the limits for fowl and chicken meet somewhere, but do not cross.Yes, it is indeed a stretch, but sometimes things get stretched to make a point. At that point, there is an egg laid by the jungle fowl that hatches and is a chicken.That stated I agree that in reality a red jungle fowl never laid an egg that was a chicken, but I was after a point. The,..., well, let's consider it said and move on.

Crashfrog,
I have a resonse to your comment, but my proposal was posted in
EvC Forum ’ All Forums ’ Science Forums ’ Intelligent Design ’ A proof against ID and CreationismI will respond there.