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Author | Topic: Why do we only find fossils? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
NosyNed Member Posts: 9004 From: Canada Joined: |
Note, Yaro, what RM says:
Randman writes: The idea that even small amounts of blood say could survive that length of time does not appear to me to be plausible, but then again, I have never really heard or seen any peer-reviewed analysis by evos that explain the issue one way or the other. The thing to note is that the example he is refering to is not blood.
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
How can soft tissue survive millions and millions of years? Are you telling me you honestly don't think that sounds off somehow?
As far as the Tar Pits, I have yet to see if the data is even reliable, and frankly it doesn't upset my beliefs if dinosaurs were not there with those other animals. I do think there is evidence dinosaurs lived longer than people think and some have been around in modern times. Wasn't there that species found a few years back that scientists had said had been extinct for 65 million years?
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AdminNosy Administrator Posts: 4754 From: Vancouver, BC, Canada Joined: |
Pakicetus is not on topic here. However, RM's point is that early on (when we had only a skull) pakicetus was drawn with more aquatic features.
He, of course, misses the point of that and it isn't really worth explaining it to him is it?
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
This guy thinks the pits are evidence of a catastrophic flood.
The page you were looking for doesn't exist (404)
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Yaro Member (Idle past 6526 days) Posts: 1797 Joined: |
Ya, in the case of the dino teeth like yours, all I could say is that enamel may be capable of surviving long periods of time. I would imagine that certain bits of creature minneralize better than others.
I'll dredge up some info on it, thoug I'm into this labrea kick now
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mick Member (Idle past 5016 days) Posts: 913 Joined: |
randman writes: I do think there is evidence dinosaurs lived longer than people think and some have been around in modern times. Wasn't there that species found a few years back that scientists had said had been extinct for 65 million years? Hello again, randman, Please elaborate. What is the evidence and what do you mean by "modern times"? I know there are so-called "fossil species" but they aren't actually dinosaurs (the coelocanth, for example, is a fish, isn't it?). Is there a "living fossil" dinosaur in the same way that there is a "living fossil" fish? I guess this is on topic because we're talking about the likelihood of a "living fossil" being "actually fossilized" or not. But for the sake of the mods' sanity let's avoid the "are living fossils really living fossils" debate which I think is going on elsewhere. Cheers! Mick
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Yaro Member (Idle past 6526 days) Posts: 1797 Joined: |
Ok.
So how come no dions or pre-ice age fauna are in the tarpit? Do you expect us to belive that a structure that captured such a large segment of the eras biota somehow failed to capture any samples of dionosaurs? Dino fossils are found all over the west. So whats up with La Brea? This message has been edited by Yaro, 11-09-2005 08:50 PM
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NosyNed Member Posts: 9004 From: Canada Joined: |
RM writes: Wasn't there that species found a few years back that scientists had said had been extinct for 65 million years? You might point out that this is wrong if RM is refering to the Coelocanth; the current one is not the same species as the extinct ones; it is not the same genus either. I think it is the same family.
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Yaro Member (Idle past 6526 days) Posts: 1797 Joined: |
http://www.tarpits.org/education/guide/flora/biodiv.html
One of the most extraordinary aspects of the fossil deposits at Rancho La Brea is the preservation of not just a few fossils, but instead an entire prehistoric ecosystem. From the smallest plant fragments to the largest mammals, the fossilized remains of Rancho La Brea number well into the millions. The evidence is complete enough that scientists can reconstruct the environment that existed in Los Angeles 12-40,000 years ago. Fossils from Rancho La Brea can be organized into categories according to what they ate, how they produced food and how they relate to each other. These nutrient categories are "trophic levels" in a food pyramid or "links" in a food chain. There are producers (green plants that manufacture their own food through photosynthesis); herbivores (plant eaters); carnivores (meat eaters) and scavengers and decomposers that reduce and recycle organic remains at all trophic levels. So, why is an entire ancient ecosystem preserved yet shows no representation of a huge group of animals that supposedly co-existed with them? No dinos, no ancient bugs, no prehistoric plants. NOTHING. Only post ice age creatures.
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Yaro Member (Idle past 6526 days) Posts: 1797 Joined: |
http://www.sjgs.com/tarpits_geol.html
After death, the skin, muscles, fur, feathers, and other soft parts of trapped animals decayed, whereas the bones and teeth remained intact. The bone in particular soaked up asphalt into its pores, thereby aiding in its preservation. Later, sediment brought in during the rainy season by streams and lakes rapidly buried the asphalt to prevent further decay of the asphalt-saturated bones. Unlike most fossils, those from the tar pits are unchanged, original bone material. So we are taling real bone material here! Pretty awsome Still no dinosaurs.
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
It is commonly alleged that the animal victims of the La Brea pits wandered into the sticky area a few at a time. These creatures became fixed in the tar and were unable to extract themselves. This procedure was repeated countless times over the centuries until the current effect resulted. But this theory does not account for the true facts. First of all, it is conceded by virtually every “fossil” expert that fossilization requires rapid burial. Ordinarily a dead animal is consumed by scavengers, or it decays into oblivion. In fact, the major book dealing with the La Brea fossils, published by the Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County, states: “A prerequisite for the preservation of bones, shells, and plants is rapid burial. For this reason, most fossils are found in sediments that accumulated in water (the deposits of ancient rivers, lakes, or oceans) where rapid burial can occur. The Rancho La Brea fossils appear to have been preserved by a unique combination of rapid sedimentation and asphalt impregnation” (Harris,12; emp. WJ).Note that concession - that the La Brea fossils “appear to have been preserved by a unique combination of rapid sedimentation and asphalt impregnation” (emp. WJ). That is much more consistent with a “Catastrophic” explanation, than it is with a “Uniformitarian” presumption. The page you were looking for doesn't exist (404)
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
But this common picture is misleading. A recent book, co-authored by a world expert on dinosaurs, points out some things about dinosaur bones that are of great interest to creationists.1 For one thing, it says: ”Bones do not have to be “turned into stone” to be fossils, and usually most of the original bone is still present in a dinosaur fossil.’2 Ok, but even if the actual bone is not replaced by rock minerals, some fossil dinosaur bones are rock-hard, and show under the microscope when cut that they have been thoroughly ”permineralized.’ This means that rock minerals have been deposited into all the spaces within the original bone. Doesn’t this show that the formation of these fossils, at least, must represent a long time? Think again. The same authoritative work also tells us: ”The amount of time that it takes for a bone to become completely permineralized is highly variable. If the groundwater is heavily laden with minerals in solution, the process can happen rapidly. Modern bones that fall into mineral springs can become permineralized within a matter of weeks.’ So even a rock-solid, hard shiny fossil dinosaur bone, showing under the microscope that all available spaces have been totally filled with rock minerals, does not indicate that it necessarily took millions of years to form at all.
http://www.oklahoma.net/~silvrdal/dinosaurs.html Hate to just do cut and paste, but it appears finding real bone is something that occurs with dinosaurs as well.
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
It appears identical from what I have read Ned.
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Belfry Member (Idle past 5115 days) Posts: 177 From: Ocala, FL Joined: |
quote:The T-rex soft tissue find has been widely misunderstood (and misreported on some creationist websites). The soft tissue was fossilized when it was found. The minerals were then carefully removed, and the tissues were then recognizable (though much degraded; last I heard it was hopeful, but not certain, that there might still be some intact proteins to be found). It's possible that many dino fossils that have been previously discovered also contain such fossilized tissues, but paleontologists have generally been reluctant to go breaking open their finds before preserving them. I've seen this reported on certain websites as if the researchers broke open fossils and found raw meat inside. This is not the case.
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