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Author Topic:   constitutionality of using public funds to promote religion
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 78 (259171)
11-12-2005 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
11-12-2005 7:49 PM


Hello, schrafinator.
I'm not sure I entirely agree with this, despite the fact that I am as anti-clerical as the best of them.
It appears that the U.S. military has had chaplains in the service since the beginning of the Republic. Whatever the First Amendment is supposed to mean, it doesn't seem to preclude the use of public funds to support chaplains in the military -- unless there was some sort of controverey in the 1790s of which I am not aware.
On the other hand, on a quick search on the history of the chaplain in Congress, I found this:
James Madison was a member of the committee of the First Congress which planned the Chaplaincy system in 1789, even though he claims that he opposed such a system at that time....Madison definitely came out against the system. He asked whether the fact that the Chaplains were paid by "the nation" did not involve the principle of establishment forbidden by the Bill of Rights, and also whether, since some groups like Catholics and Quakers could scarcely be elected to the office, the provision of chaplains by a majority vote were not a palpable violation of civil rights and unfair to minorities."
So it appears that there may have been some controversey after all.
At any rate, as someone who recognizes that the Constitution is based on tradition and judicial rulings as much as a now ancient sheet of parchment, I would say that the existence of chaplains in the military, and the opening of Congress with a prayer, is as Constitutional as anything else.
Of course, traditions and judicial rulings go change, as recent events remind us.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by nator, posted 11-12-2005 7:49 PM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by RAZD, posted 11-12-2005 8:26 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 78 (259355)
11-13-2005 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by nwr
11-13-2005 1:36 PM


I agree
quote:
It [the pledge] will do nothing to instill patriotism.
Probably true. I grew up at a time when we were required to say the pledge, and I can't imagine how I could be more apatriotic. It becomes just like what the evangelicals accuse the Catholic Church of becoming: one of a set of empty rituals whose meaning has long been forgotten.
-
quote:
Surely it would be more effective to spend the time on American history.
Probably true. Especially if the heavily propaganized version of history as favored by the Religious Right is taught. If combined with a Fox News based curriculum of "current events", this might be much more effective at instilling patriotism.
I also suggest implementing a daily Two Minutes Hate, as well.
-
quote:
I have always thought of teacher led prayer as a way of teaching children to disrespect religion.
I dunno. I think it would be just like the pledge; an empty ritual that would so nothing to establish respect or disrespect for religion. But I don't know; school prayer was long gone before I entered school. At least in my area.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by nwr, posted 11-13-2005 1:36 PM nwr has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 78 (259896)
11-15-2005 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by AK-7
11-14-2005 11:21 PM


quote:
The role of prisons is not to simply punish the prisoner; in fact, except for life sentences and the death penalty, this is never the case. The goal of prisons is to make the inmates better members of society.
Well, I don't want to derail this into a thread about prisons, but I agree that the role of prisons should be to make the inmates better members of society. However, here in the US the role of prisons is to punish the prisoners. And in some states, as harshly as possible.
-
Back to topic:
quote:
Couldn't you even justify forcing religion upon people if that made them better members of society? Isn't that what the government is for, after all, with all the laws and rules, isn't it to govern the society and make/help everyone fit in?
You are correct, the purpose of the state is to make people better members of society and to make/help everyone fit in; that is, the purpose of the state is implement and promote policies consistent with the ruling ideology that supports and protects the power and privileges of the elite over the masses.
However, some of us believe that every individual has the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and this includes the individual right to determine for herself where her path to happiness leads.
The problem with state enforced religion is that it, at best, forces someone else's path to happiness on the individual, and at worst it is simply a cynical means of social control.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

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 Message 27 by AK-7, posted 11-14-2005 11:21 PM AK-7 has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 74 of 78 (261392)
11-19-2005 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by MangyTiger
11-19-2005 9:40 PM


It's worse than that.
Here is an article about Dr. Hager written last May or so. (I hope that you have a strong stomach when you read this.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by MangyTiger, posted 11-19-2005 9:40 PM MangyTiger has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 78 (261510)
11-20-2005 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by RAZD
11-20-2005 9:19 AM


Re: Getting way OT
Well, to be fair to jar, the article to which I linked (and which I assume he was referring to, in part) did talk about a lot more than just Hager's religious beliefs and their influence on his public policy positions.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by RAZD, posted 11-20-2005 9:19 AM RAZD has not replied

  
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