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Author Topic:   General Relativity Question
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3925 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 18 of 39 (271579)
12-21-2005 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Fabric
12-21-2005 9:00 PM


off topic answer to the wave/particle/field quandary
It's because what the quantum physics guys call a particle isn't the same thing as what you are thinking of. They just call them that so you will understand that they are talking about what's going on down below the atomic level. But really, they are "entities" used to define fields, gravity is a field, the field warps spacetime, most fields do but not to such a great extent or so incredibly weakly, they hope to measure and define the properties of the entity associated with this field.

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 Message 17 by Fabric, posted 12-21-2005 9:00 PM Fabric has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Iblis
Member (Idle past 3925 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 24 of 39 (271816)
12-22-2005 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Fabric
12-21-2005 10:03 PM


So long as we stick with gravity and how qm clashes melodiously with general relativity I guess we will be ok?
You said you understood the idea of a heavy object sitting in spacetime and thereby warping things toward it. I expect you have heard the analogy where you have something like a pencil or a wineglass (a rolly object) lying on a mattress (a warpable surface) and it lies still just fine, but then when you stick a more massive object in the middle of the mattress, like a typewriter or a television, all that stuff suddenly rolls right towards because it changes the shape of the mattress and thereby warps stuff toward it.
This is an excellent analogy from the general relativity viewpoint in that it causes people to nod their head about how it works even though they can't think in Einstein-level math all day. But really it doesn't explain anything, and neither does the math, it just says that gravity affects the math in a specific definable way. And that's fine for gravity, for the moment.
Meanwhile though light for example, one of our other relativity goodies in the math, has some properties that we have a lot more trouble getting people to swallow with simplistic analogies and universal math. For example light behaves like a wave, like sound for example, but has no medium to be traveling through. In other words, something is traveling, like what the atomic chemists would call a particle would, but it doesn't have any mass and moves in all directions at once, unlike a particle. The word "wavicle" was invented at this point, and some of the guys actually doing the math were able to nod their heads at that, but really it isn't a very good explanation either even for scientists.
Menwhile the guys who actually make the bombs and run the accelerators and generally investigate new ways of blowing up the earth, they were seeing something odd. Based on the math that they did, relating to very small things rather than large areas like relativity, some of the fundamental components they were breaking up particles into had equally odd impossible properties.
We ended up with a bestiary of different pseudo-particles in two families, the fermions and the bosons. The bosons, like the photon that turns out to explain light, take up space but have no mass. The fermions have mass, but don't take up any space! This, you will notice, makes it fairly hard for the mass to be the thing that is directly warping the space, it not having any of its own to work with.
Some of the bosons though, the pseudo-particles that relate to space and are expressed as fields, they do warp space, and they are attached to the fermions in normal matter. Sadly, the ones we have actually seen so far in the course of smashing things do not include the graviton, the one that would theoretically mediate the field that holds the universe together in the big vague way that general relativity requires. We have seen the ones that mediate the fields that hold atoms together though, so we certainly aren't giving up, the general idea is to find one like that only much Much weaker.
Cavediver is pointing out that some of the new attempts at unified theories are suggesting that perhaps we don't need another particle at all, perhaps the entities that hold neutrons together could also make gravity work if you just added a whole gob of extra dimensions instead, with one version of the force being diluted by going in every direction through uncounted branes and another being strengthened by having its force trapped in a very small circular dimension curved in on itself. But really, it's all gibberish until someone manages to catch signs of it in one of the big particle accelerators. (And only slightly more sensible for years afterward, I expect.)
Anyway to summarize, fields are the expression of the quantum "particles" that have no mass and mediate space, the bosons. Electromagnetism, the stuff that makes light work, is a field. Gravity, the stuff that warps smaller masses towards larger ones, is a field. Fields tend to express themselves at the maximum speed possible in our spacetime, C = 186000 miles or 300000 kilometers per second, and in all directions at once. The other set of particles, the fermions, which do have mass, are normally bound up in these fields in various ways, which is lucky because the relationship between the two seems to make our spacetime what it is.
*Oh, and the reason these little guys are allowed to break all the rules is because they are technically smaller, shorter or less whatever than one of the measurably smallest possible things that are normally possible in our curved spacetime. For example, nothing that has mass and takes up space can possibly be smaller than Planck's Constant (the distance light travels in the smallest measure of time). Yet when we smash things that are almost that small already in two, we still get stuff. But, it's stuff that does one or the other, not both.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Fabric, posted 12-21-2005 10:03 PM Fabric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Fabric, posted 12-23-2005 4:35 AM Iblis has replied
 Message 26 by cavediver, posted 12-23-2005 5:08 AM Iblis has replied

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3925 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 30 of 39 (272059)
12-23-2005 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by cavediver
12-23-2005 5:08 AM


more gibberish
Oh grand, I'm stupid after all! I was hoping that would be the case, it takes some of the responsibility off me.
While you are poking at me though, would it be possible for you (or some smart person) to help me understand the "triplets" paradox from the original post better? The way I read it, if I'm not missing something important, the third body that stays in the new inertial frame can calculate what order things took place in on the first and second body and come up with a different answer than the first body who stayed in the original inertial frame.
This isn't an issue of how long it takes light to tell them what happens, either, the paradox continues even after you convert distance (light years) into time (years). Is that right?
If so, is it only the acausality of the relationship between the bodies that makes this work? How does the universe guarantee all such relationships will be acausal?
So far the responses I've seen on this part of the question don't make enough sense to me, they include a lot of instantaneous or near-instantaneous transitions in acceleration that I don't believe occur in the real world, presumably to make things simpler, but resulting in the untrue impression that as you suddenly make a u-turn in space all that time catches up with you, kind of a thing. No one suddenly makes u-turns at near-light speeds though, so I'm trying to visualize what it would really look like as you slowly decelerate to a stop and then accelerate back whence you came.
PS: if you are going to make the "real" version of the warped mattress analogy work you are going to have to pitch pennies at it while floating in free fall yeah, but I've never yet seen anyone afflicted with it who didn't start nodding well before then, so it tends to get truncated in the classrom.
Getting people to understand the actual "twins" paradox is not a problem, they could read Heinlein in "Time for the Stars" over the weekend. But I'm still not finding any sense in this 3 bodies problem, is the assumption about the "other" inertial frame even true or is it backwards?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by cavediver, posted 12-23-2005 5:08 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by cavediver, posted 12-23-2005 3:52 PM Iblis has replied

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3925 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 32 of 39 (272148)
12-23-2005 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by cavediver
12-23-2005 3:52 PM


more twins
Thanks!
Let me try this again. In the twins paradox, you can simulate the concept of "simultaneity" by making your twins psychic. Stella is one light year away, traveling half the speed of light. Messages from Terra are one year old, and sped up. (Are they sped up twice as fast, have i got that right?) What I mean is, they have to be replayed in slow-motion in order for me to understand them, as broadcast they sound like the chipmunks.
But Stella and Terra are very close, they are in fact Psychic Twins, and can communicate simultaneously with one another! Mental messages from Terra are received Now, not one year later, but they Also are sped up, and make Stella's head hurt. Terra has to learn to think Twice as slow (or whatever) in order to get ideas across. Perhaps helpful scientists can freeze her a bit!
As Stella accelerates and decelerates amongst the nearby stars, the radio messages she sends speed up and slow down in relation to the relative aging of the sender, always remaining slower than the proper clock of Terra. When she orbits a planet or stops to turn around or whatever, this gets back down to the minimum so that these messages sent then are just about normal speed. But they are also delayed by the length of time it takes them to travel, which is the distance in light years.
Keeping the idea of simultaneity alive for a moment longer, these mental messages also slow down and speed up relative to the senders experience of aging, but get through a period of time earlier which is about equal to that same distance in light years. Stella is now 10 light years away and traveling at 3/4 of the speed of light, her messages are 4 (???) times slower, don't get here for 10 years, her mental messages are behaving a totally different way, and we already know there's trouble.
Stella is still pretty young, we are only keeping Terra alive with extreme means to keep the messages going, and now little Estrellita, who has inherited her mom and aunt's special connection, is heading back towards earth! she has one speed of light relative to one inertial frame and one relative to another! She has two speeds of light, and with her magical simultaneous connection to both reference frames she can see and change the future! (if, and only if, she can come up with a way to read some psychic messages even if they are being received in reverse)
Is that it, is that what breaks simultaneity irrevocably?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by cavediver, posted 12-23-2005 3:52 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by cavediver, posted 12-23-2005 4:36 PM Iblis has replied
 Message 39 by ramoss, posted 02-04-2006 9:25 AM Iblis has not replied

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3925 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 34 of 39 (272173)
12-23-2005 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by cavediver
12-23-2005 4:36 PM


less twins, more action
Just breaking causality doesn't bother me that much though, wouldn't it take care of itself quite naturally?
Let's take your observer, call him Tiberius, let's say he does intercept little Estrellita and take advantage of her to change the past, make himself Emperor and prevent space travel from developing at all. As a result, Stella never even leaves the planet! And as a result of that, the cause of Tiberius becoming Emperor never happens, and the past is changed again!
This time through though, every single little quantum event that is truly random fires differently. Every butterfly flapping his wings and making a hurricane goes a different way. Stella and Terra are never born, instead some different idiots eventually develops a different method of time-travel, and try to do something else (interfere in the Kennedy assassination I'm betting.) They find that every time they try to accomplish anything though, kidnap Oswald before he ever goes to work that day, or take a pot-shot at that guy on the grassy knoll, it all goes horribly wrong.
They don't get reset though, like Tiberius, because they don't actually succeed in altering their past, they just turn out to have already been creating it before they were born.
These two scenarios show breakable and unbreakable causality and how they are indistinguishable. The Kennedy guys could have succeeded in breaking causality a hundred times and not know it, because the only spacetime that remains stable and consistent is the one that eventually results in an odd string of terribly improbable events. The others won't ever have existed once they are gone.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by cavediver, posted 12-23-2005 4:36 PM cavediver has replied

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 Message 35 by cavediver, posted 12-23-2005 5:37 PM Iblis has not replied

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3925 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 36 of 39 (272207)
12-23-2005 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Fabric
12-23-2005 4:35 AM


back to Fabric
You're welcome, if even half these models help you get some of it I don't think it will be a waste of time. I'm sure you understand I am oversimplifying everything out the yinyang in order to break it up into palatable chunks, there's no other way around it though.
For example, my Crowleian distinction between mass-units and space-units is only even implicitly true down at the very lowest levels of spacetime, in the real world we always find mass and space joined together at the hip in exact proportions, and the words "fermion" and "boson" actually mean something rather different than the ideas I am using them as a place-holder for. I promise though, we will get to the business of how a helium atom could also be a boson in a bit. In the meantime, let's stick with mass and space, as it sounds a bit more scientific than "something" and "nothing".
Assuming you have got the idea of how gravity could be a field, a quality of space associated with a mass, you can see that spacetime, distance, all that, is directly associated with the masses themselves. That is, space is a field that extends outward from a planet (for example) and decreases in some sort of strength or intensity the further away it is. Imagine it in terms of there being More space in the direction of the mass than away from it. As a results of this bias in direction, all the random motion represented by rest energy that would normally cancel itself out now slants in the direction of the planet.
Cavediver talked through the mathematical meaning of the word "field" and I don't know that I could add a lot to that. One of the fun things to make note of with quantum mechanics though is that the reason you have to resort to averages and sheaves of probability to do proper math with them is that some of your numbers drop to 0. You know that ????? or ###### your spreadsheet gives you when one of your fields you are dividing another one by happens to be 0? And then if you get 0/0, what the heck is that ?!?
That's what the quantum guys like to do to the General Relativity guys math! The way they get through it (a fellow named Cantor helped) is to go ahead and allow for "zero" and "infinity" in the equations and treat them as misbehaving variables. So for example when we take 3x and 7y and throw them through the 0/0 machine, we get back something odd of course, call them 3x' and 7y', and we dont know what x' and y' will be! But we do predict that we will get 3 of one and 7 of the other.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Fabric, posted 12-23-2005 4:35 AM Fabric has not replied

  
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