Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
0 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,913 Year: 4,170/9,624 Month: 1,041/974 Week: 368/286 Day: 11/13 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Intelligent Design in Science Class - Sample curriculum please
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 4 of 108 (277212)
01-08-2006 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jman
01-08-2006 3:33 PM


good luck
I'd like to see a sample curriculum of ID so I can be better informed and thus better able to make a decision.
One source for this would be the "pandas" book promoted by the ill-advised Dover, PA (ex)School Board. Don't look for much {ID science} in it, as it is more full of {anti-science} retoric, imh(ysa)o.
{abe} See Amacon.com: "Of Pandas and People" (click) -- with "promo" material, and
Of Pandas and People - A Brief Critique (click) by Ken Miller, just a beginning rather than a full critique actually ... {/abe}
{Edit by Adminnemooseus - I have changed "ID/creation" to just "ID". Let's try to keep the "c word" out of this topic.}
I was going to comment about the "ID/Creationism" bit as well, but see that it has been edited out -- conflating the two can get into all kinds of problems with dealing with what ID actually is trying to promote (politically), no matter how close to the {actual usage} it treads. So let's stick to what ID claims.
The basic claim {as commonly used by the major proponents} is that in the absence of any {evidence\explanation} for an observed already evolved {feature\ability\asset}, that it is possible to conclude that "somebody did it" (and without the "somebody" being defined, so that it could be a naturally evolved alien as easily as a minor to major god type being). This of course leaves us with two problems:
(1) it is a logical fallacy that because there is no current explanation that none will be forthcoming, thus making the conclusion "somebody did it" a leap of faith unsupported by any evidence, and
(2) it is untestable, being an explanation of the gaps rather than an explanation of the facts.
Neither of these problems allows any reason to include it in a course based on the use of logic, evidence and rational conclusions based on testing, regardless of what the course teaches otherwise.
It will be interesting to see what the "proponents" say. (I put proponenets in quotes, because they all seem to be creationists that have adopted parts of the ID concept rather than embrace it fully while discarding their creationist past).
This is aside from the whole issue of how ID could be pursued if it were done properly ...
Just my thoughts.
Enjoy.
This message has been edited by RAZD, 01*08*2006 04:09 PM

Join the effort to unravel {AIDS\HIV} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jman, posted 01-08-2006 3:33 PM Jman has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 17 of 108 (284504)
02-06-2006 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by inkorrekt
02-05-2006 7:32 PM


Links to the other side of the design debate.
The introduction of ID is only to challenge the icons of evolution.
Why? What about evolution makes it a such a target? What part is not compatable with some derivation of ID?
The next step for us is to introduce ID.
You need to start from first principles and see where the conclusions go, rather than taking conclusions as given or adapting any kind of creationism.
Then, the debate will have some life.
First let's address both sides of the design debate, and see where that leads us.
See http://EvC Forum: Silly Design Institute: Let's discuss BOTH sides of the Design Controversy...
for more information.
Enjoy.

Join the effort to unravel {AIDS\HIV} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by inkorrekt, posted 02-05-2006 7:32 PM inkorrekt has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 34 of 108 (293119)
03-07-2006 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by ramoss
03-07-2006 6:40 PM


Re: ID is not based on supernaturalism
"IC" systems have been observed evolving. This concept is falsified as an indicator of ID.
A kaleidoscope shows a pretty and complex pattern when viewed one way, but is just a random jumble in reality. People looking for patterns cannot tell if they are looking through a kaleidoscope or not.
Enjoy.

Join the effort to unravel {AIDS\HIV} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by ramoss, posted 03-07-2006 6:40 PM ramoss has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 55 of 108 (302605)
04-09-2006 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by carini
04-08-2006 10:54 PM


Re: ID in proper conception, and it's place in school.
As a proponent of evolution its alot easier for me to imagine evolution occuring, then a "god" creating(poofing) everything into its current state.
The question then becomes where the magic line is drawn ... evolutionary creationist, evolutionary theist, (and 'evolutionary' not needed for: ) Deist, Agnostic, whatever.
ID in the form of christian creationism, is about the simplest explanation there is.
No, ID in it's simplest conception, means that you take no preconceptions of any kind, and assume that no 'revelation' of design may be evident. You have to simplify, simplify, simplify, to get to the "simplest explanation" eh?
Introducing any religion (christian, hindu, whatever) to the mix complicates it, as there has to then be a correlation between the {ID concept used} and the {chosen faith}. There is certainly no need to assume christian creationism has any more valid a reconstruction than any other {religion\faith\belief}, so occam's bloody razor removes it.
The best you can assume is that the way the creation works can be understood based on the rules used to form it. This means all scientific avenues are valid, as they are attempts to reach the best understanding of the way the whole thing works.
Not only that, but it becomes imperative to pursue all lines of rigorous and logical thought - scientific and philosophical - so that you are not deceived by any apparent patterns and can seperate the wheat from the chaff.
The problem for ID is how to distinguish the view in one end of a kaleidoscope (an organized pattern) from the view in the other (a random jumble) when you don't understand the {system\function\behavior} of the kaleidoscope.
Carried to it's logical conclusion, ID (fully) becomes a form of Deism (instead of only a weak (corrupted?) sibling). What holds many IDeists back is the unwillingness to recognize those things they cannot change:
God, grant me serenity
to accept the things I cannot change,
courage to change the things I can
and wisdom to know the difference.
Scientific evidence is one of those things.
I like complexity, not the simplest answer possible.
Complexity has a function if it adds to the explanatory power of a concept (and it can be tested). This is the way the scientific theories grow (until some new simplifying paradigm\gut comes along). General Relativity is more complex than Newtonian physics.
Complexity that does not add to explanatory power usually reduces it and is thus counterproductive.
Eventually fundametalist creationists will see the light and accept that the world is very very old, that evolution is how life evolves ...
Fundamentalists and creationists will still be around - those that are YEC will become increasingly marginalized as the evidence continues to mount that the world is undeniably (rationally anyway) old, and will join other denial based beliefs, like flat-earthers - but the fundamentalists and creationists will find some way to reconcile (to themselves anyway) belief with the facts.
That being said (and to bring this thread back to the original topic ... ), the concept of ID is a philosophical concept that, when taken to it's logical conclusion, uses all of science as a tool. As such it does not belong in science class (in the same way that math is not taught in, say, physics or engineering or whatever classes) but in philosophy class.
This allows the full use of the structures of logic for theories, proofs (if possible) and deductions and a rational evaluation of all the evidence.
And it would have to have a history to be put in history class eh?
Enjoy.

Join the effort to unravel {AIDS\HIV} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by carini, posted 04-08-2006 10:54 PM carini has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 62 of 108 (303696)
04-12-2006 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Minnemooseus
04-12-2006 5:08 PM


Re: Fine tuning of orbits?
Heh. That's just exactly the article I thought of when I read inkorrekt(again)'s comment.
Glad to see it's back in the public realm, as I had an old bookmark to it when it first came out. Thanks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Minnemooseus, posted 04-12-2006 5:08 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 75 of 108 (308095)
04-30-2006 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by inkorrekt
04-30-2006 5:45 PM


Re: Links to other site's ID curriculum, if you can
Leaving aside your totally insulting and unsubstantiated claim of brainwashing in public schools, you arejust plain wrong in your conclusion that the cause of poor performance is due to teaching evolution.
To add to what ReverendDG said ... Private schools can also dismiss students that don't meet the academic standards, public schools can't and end up with the private school cast-offs. This biases and skews the data on education.
in private schools ... students do far better in MAths and Science
... assuming for the purpose of analysis that your claim here is based on some valid evidence in some schools somewhere (I haven't seen it) ...
(1) How does teaching evolution impact the education in math? Evolution has nothing to do with math education, so there should be no correlation to performance in math education.
(2) Private schools that teach evolution (the non-religious ones eh?) have no such correlation with poor performance in maths and sciences.
For your conclusion to be valid (that teaching evolution is the cause of poor grades) then both (1) and (2) should NOT happen. They do.
Thus your conclusion is totally invalid.
Enjoy.

Join the effort to unravel {AIDS\HIV} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by inkorrekt, posted 04-30-2006 5:45 PM inkorrekt has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by inkorrekt, posted 05-02-2006 9:18 PM RAZD has not replied
 Message 77 by inkorrekt, posted 05-02-2006 9:34 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 79 of 108 (309494)
05-05-2006 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by inkorrekt
05-02-2006 9:34 PM


Re: Links to other site's ID curriculum, if you can
Teaching of evolution has nothing to do with the performance in Maths.
Good.
For learning mathematics and Science, the teachers must encourage critical thinking. The best way, Science can be taught is to allow students to Critique what is being taught.
This would also apply to all the other courses being taught (with a possible exception of sunday school)
Can you explain why math is affected but other non-science courses aren't?

Join the effort to unravel {AIDS\HIV} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by inkorrekt, posted 05-02-2006 9:34 PM inkorrekt has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by inkorrekt, posted 05-07-2006 11:25 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 95 of 108 (310216)
05-08-2006 7:20 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by inkorrekt
05-07-2006 11:25 PM


Re: Links to other site's ID curriculum, if you can
Mathematics requires logical and critical thinking. Those teachers who encourage critical thinking build very good mathematicians.Other subjects like Physics, chemistry, which are mathematics based subjects also fall in this category.
inkorrekt, msg 93 writes:
Critical thinking can very well be applied to everyday life. It is not only applicable to Mathematics,but also other subjects.
See that's where the problem is -- if you teach critical thinking in one school and not in the other, then the effect should be seen across the board in all classes.
I presume you are now also equivocating on the teaching of evolution as being a culprit, as you have not answered why the private schools that teach evolution also have the grade differences you note.
Please apply critical thinking to the concept you have presented.
Enjoy.

Join the effort to unravel {AIDS\HIV} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by inkorrekt, posted 05-07-2006 11:25 PM inkorrekt has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 100 of 108 (311587)
05-12-2006 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by inkorrekt
05-10-2006 8:02 PM


waffling.
I wrote that Teaching of Evolution has nothing to do with poor performance in Maths and Science. I also wrote that what is taught is not important. But, how it is taught is more important. I also insisted that Evolution must be taught.
Message 73
inkorrekt, msg 73 writes:
...they have been taught (brain washed) that Evolution is a fact. The outcome is that our students do extremely poor in Maths and Science.
You implied a direct link between teaching evolution and poor performance.
If evolution is taught as the only mechanism by which all living things originated, then there is a problem.
Once again, evolution is not about first life, but about change in existing life over time. The science that deals with finding a "mechanism by which all living things originated" is called Abiogenesis.
But here's an easy solution to your concern on teaching evolution: develop an alternative scientific theory, based on observations of real evidence; use it to make predictions of things you would see if theory {NEW} were correct and theory {Just Evolution} was incorrect; look for evidence; document finding it; write peer reviewed paper demonstrating the power of theory {NEW} to predict actual occurances where theory {Just Evolution} failed; wait 10-50 years for it to get into textbooks.
The reason: These two subjects depend on Logic and reasoning
As does evolution. So far it is the only logical explanation that fits all the facts in a consistent and predictable manner.
Enjoy.

Join the effort to unravel {AIDS\HIV} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by inkorrekt, posted 05-10-2006 8:02 PM inkorrekt has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by inkorrekt, posted 05-12-2006 9:49 PM RAZD has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 103 of 108 (311712)
05-13-2006 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by EZscience
05-12-2006 9:56 PM


Re: waffling.
I'm not sure that is what he meant. Of course I'm also not sure what he meant ...
Does he mean that there are "no assumptions, suppositions, predictions and extrapolations?" in the process of formulating theories in evolution, as in any science?
Or does he mean that there are "no assumptions, suppositions, predictions and extrapolations?" at all in evolutionary science?
Or does he mean that there are "no assumptions, suppositions, predictions and extrapolations?" in logic?

Join the effort to unravel {AIDS\HIV} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by EZscience, posted 05-12-2006 9:56 PM EZscience has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 105 of 108 (311775)
05-14-2006 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by inkorrekt
05-14-2006 3:09 PM


Re: waffling.
WE???

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by inkorrekt, posted 05-14-2006 3:09 PM inkorrekt has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by EZscience, posted 05-14-2006 8:44 PM RAZD has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 108 of 108 (311822)
05-14-2006 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by inkorrekt
05-14-2006 3:09 PM


Re: waffling.
First of all you know verywell that the foundation of evolution is based purely on Naturalism which is a philosophy and it is not even Science.
"Naturalism" -- from dictionary.com
nat·u·ral·ism n.
1. Factual or realistic representation, especially:
...a. The practice of describing precisely the actual circumstances of human life in literature.
...b. The practice of reproducing subjects as precisely as possible in the visual arts.
2.
...a. A movement or school advocating such precise representation.
...b. The principles and methods of such a movement or of its adherents.
3. Philosophy. The system of thought holding that all phenomena can be explained in terms of natural causes and laws.
4. Theology. The doctrine that all religious truths are derived from nature and natural causes and not from revelation.
5. Conduct or thought prompted by natural desires or instincts.
Seeing as you are not talking about art or theology (specifically deism ...) you must mean definition #3 ...
... that all phenomena can be explained in terms of natural causes and laws.
This includes every science ever known to man and all those yet to be, so evolution is in no special status as a "holy cow" in that regard.
sci·ence n.
1.
...a. The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.
...b. Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena.
...c. Such activities applied to an object of inquiry or study.
2. Methodological activity, discipline, or study: I've got packing a suitcase down to a science.
3. An activity that appears to require study and method: the science of purchasing.
4. Knowledge, especially that gained through experience.
Notice that there is no special distinction between evolution and other science in this definition.
We are only asking simple questions. We are not getting any answers.
You are getting many very specific answers. They just don't happen to be ones you like. Let me check the natural world ....
... yep. The world is not specifically made for your personal theological or whatever comfort. That's life. Like it or lump it.

Join the effort to unravel {AIDSHIV} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by inkorrekt, posted 05-14-2006 3:09 PM inkorrekt has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024