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Author Topic:   Can't ID be tested AT ALL?
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 136 of 304 (309675)
05-06-2006 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by jaywill
05-06-2006 12:49 PM


Re: What IC is and isn't.
quote:
Well, I haven't read it. But I figure that if Behe had a point that hasn't been refuted, then someone who has read the book could supply it. So far, every ID argument that I have seen can be easily refuted within minutes using Google.
I'm a little skeptical of this claim.
Which claim are you skeptical of? Do you believe that I might have read Behe's book? Or do you believe that I may have seen an ID argument for which I have not found a refutation?
Edited to add:
Or perhaps you believe that there could be an unrefuted point in Behe's book, but no one is capable of bringing it up?
There, those are the only three claims in the quote you provided.
Edited again:
Oops. My claim is actually I figure that if Behe had a point.... Perhaps you think that I don't really believe that a person could bring up an unrefuted point if Behe has one?
This message has been edited by Chiroptera, 06-May-2006 05:21 PM

"Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure."
-- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 137 of 304 (309679)
05-06-2006 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by jaywill
05-06-2006 12:45 PM


Re: N+1 jawbones
http://www.geocities.com/...naveral/Hangar/2437/therapsd.htm
Pre Therapsid Reptile -- 1 jaw hinge, multiple jaw bones, 1 earbone
Therapsid (cynodont Probainognathus) -- 2 jaw hinges, Reptile>Mammal
Therapsid (ictidosaurian Diarthrognathus) -- 2 jaw hinges, Mammal>Reptile
Post Therapsid Mammal -- 1 jaw hinge, 1 jaw bone, multiple ear bones
The earliest therapsids show the typical reptilian type of jaw joint, with the articular bone in the jaw firmly attached to the quadrate bone in the skull. In later fossils from the same group, however, the quadrate-articular bones have become smaller, and the dentary and squamosal bones have become larger and moved closer together. This trend reaches its apex in a group of therapsids known as cynodonts, of which the genus Probainognathus is a representative. Probainognathus possessed characteristics of both reptile and mammal, and this transitional aspect was shown most clearly by the fact that it had TWO jaw joints--one reptilian, one mammalian ...
In a slightly later group, known as the ictidosaurians, the mammalian part of the double jaw joint seen in Probainognathus was strengthened, while the old reptilian part was beginning to become reduced in size. ...
... The entire process had taken nearly the whole length of the Triassic period to complete, a time span of approximately 40 million years. Since the determining characteristic of a mammal in the fossil record is the structure of the jaw bone and joint, all of the therapsids up to the Morganucodonts are classified as reptiles, and all those after that are considered to be mammals.
Would that be evolution or the reverse of evolution? Would that be a kind of degeneration yet still performing the useful function?
Should the loss of the hinge be considered evolution or degeneration?
Each stage is evolution.
By comparing 'evolution' to 'degeneration' you are making a mistaken and unfounded equation of 'evolution' to 'progress' -- evolution can make what we view as 'progressive' or 'regressive' changes, but the valuation of the change as either is a product of our valuation and does not have any relationship to the change or the cause of the change.
Enjoy.

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 138 of 304 (309687)
05-06-2006 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by jaywill
05-06-2006 12:52 PM


Software guy
Once upon a time. That is very rusty now. Why? Is there some relevance?

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 139 of 304 (309690)
05-06-2006 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by jaywill
05-06-2006 12:49 PM


Refuted pointes
If Behe had made any strong points you'd think they would be presented as an opening post to a thread here wouldn't you?
All we seem to see from the ID folks is one of:
1) very poorly done probabilitiy calculations
2) claming IC (pretty much by definition) can't evolve
3) using god of the gaps arguments and general incredulity.
Do you have anything else?

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 140 of 304 (309759)
05-06-2006 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by jaywill
05-05-2006 3:08 PM


What IC means and what it doesn't.
A system with N functional parts can only do the job it is suppose to do with N functional parts. If you reduce one of the parts from the system, say N-1 functional parts, the system simply cannot perform its function.
For what it is worth I fully agree with this definition of "Irreducible Complexity" ("IC"). The same system with N+1 functional parts is not IC because you can remove the +1 part and still function, you cannot remove any more without lose of the specific function used to define the ICness of the N parts.
I never really got the idea that really really complex means irreducibly complex.
And there is absolutely no reason for an IC system to be very complex, it could be as simple a system as N=2. Take away either part and the function ceases to happen: IC by definition.
The problem is that such a two part ({A}+{B}) system can easily evolve, in fact {'FL' says 'almost' while 'BL' says 'absolutely'} every function starts this way.
Have more 'complex' IC systems evolved that we know of? Well first we need to define 'complex' ...
We could define it as the number of interactions between the parts necessary to achieve the function (so the complexity is dependent on the number of parts and the number of interactions - a three part function where {A} interacts with both {B} and {C} and {B} interacts with {C} thus has 3 'complexities', while a function where {A} interacts with {B} which then interacts with {C} only has 2 'complexities').
By this definition the above {A} + {B} system only has a 'complexity' of 1.
Ken Miller, "A True Acid Test", says:
In 1982, Barry Hall of the University of Rochester began a series of experiments in which he deleted the bacterial gene for the enzyme beta-galactosidase. The loss of this gene makes it impossible for the bacteria to metabolize the sugar lactose.
An IC system with 1 part removed. Ceased to function.
Under appropriate selection conditions Hall found that the bacteria evolved not only the gene for a new beta-galactosidase enzyme (called the evolved beta-galactosidase gene, or ebg), but also a control sequence that switched the new gene on when glucose was present.
Two different parts evolved to replace the lost function.
Finally, a new chemical reaction evolved as well, producing allolactose, the chemical signal that normally switches on the lac permease gene, allowing lactose to flow into the cell.
A third part evolved to allow the other two to operate.
All well and good, eh? Just evolving new parts to replace damaged parts ... just adding to the system eh?
... once the (beta-galactosidase enzyme) gene was deleted, three components had to evolve to replace its function: First, a new galactosidase enzyme, second, a new lactose-sensitive control region, and third, a new way to switch on the lac permease gene.
Well here's the kicker:
Does Barry Hall's ebg system fit the definition of irreducible complexity? Absolutely. The three parts of the evolved system are:
(1) A lactose-sensitive ebg repressor protein that controls expression of the galactosidase enzyme
(2) The ebg galactosidase enzyme
(3) The enzyme reaction that induces the lac permease
Unless all three are in place, the system does not function, which is, of course, the key element of an irreducibly complex system.
The new system is by definition an IC (sub)system.
Now this may seem to be only an {A}+({B}+{C}) system (complexity = 2) but it is only part of the system, because the function is to metabolize the sugar lactose.
Logically the function could involve any number of parts {N} (minimum 'complexity' = N-1 for a linear process), and the loss of one part can be replace by the evolution of new part(s).
The new system may need more parts than the original (here we have N-1+3 = N+2) ... so it may actually be more 'complex' afterwards ... obviously, then, increased 'complexity' is not a marker for excluding evolution from the process.
Later evolution may replace other parts with fewer parts ... part {Q} could replace parts {J} and {G} ... or replace single parts (damaged by other means) with additional increased numbers of parts.
The number of parts necessary for the function is not critical to the organism, what is critical is that the function be performed. Once that criteria is met then the organism is free to evolve methods to reduce the 'complexity' (ie use less resources for the same viability), and when this happens then natural selection would operate to the advantage of the reduced system over the more 'complex' one.
One can thus argue that 'IC' is a necessary outcome of natural selection on organisms with complex functions, as it would operate to remove any unnecessary parts from the functionality.
What does this all mean?
(1) That IC systems are not indicative of non-evolutionary process, rather they should be frequently observed and occurring often in evolved organisms.
(2) That IC is invalidated as a marker of "intelligent design" ("ID") -- because any number of any level of 'complexity' IC systems can freely and easily evolve.
(3) That anyone still using IC to promote ID is not paying attention.


Note, above we have the statement:
"The same system with N+1 functional parts is not IC because you can remove the +1 part and still function, you cannot remove any more without lose of the specific function used to define the ICness of the N parts."
What is interesting is that once you phrase it like this you raise the possibility that adding a new part to function {X} and then removing a different part still leaves you with functionality -- it may be {X} and it may be {Y}.
It is also possible that you could add part {Q} and remove parts {J} and {G} for the same functionality (it may be {X} and it may be {Y}), thus simplifying the 'complexity' but arriving at another 'IC' conundrum of the ID logical fallacy of incredulity: "Gosh, how could that happen naturally"...
Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
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ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4140 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 141 of 304 (309761)
05-06-2006 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by jaywill
05-06-2006 11:11 AM


Re: What IC is and isn't.
OK? no i was making the point that it was amusing that you hadn't read behe but came up with the same idea i think you misunderstood me
as for this :
I mean I have seen this or that point debated. But has anyone written a book of similiar length taking each chapter to task? It seems that over the Internet there's a lot of bragging about how bad Behe was refuted. I often question whether some of these braggers have even read Darwin's Black Box.
i have and its nothing but nonsense, and meaningless science words with no meaning other than to impress non-science people
why would we need to refute every chapter? his arguments amounts to "evolution couldn't happen because of some calculation we came up with that makes it impossible, so it is." or "i just don't consider it possible so its not"

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inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6111 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 142 of 304 (310867)
05-10-2006 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by RAZD
05-06-2006 4:27 PM


Re: What IC means and what it doesn't.
This post is fascinating. So, we both agree that the regulatory mechanisms for the beta-galactosidase gene, are complex. This experiment only elucidates the control mechanisms for the metabolism of lactose. This among other observations is a clear evidence for ID. Thanks for the post.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 143 of 304 (310869)
05-10-2006 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by inkorrekt
05-10-2006 7:50 PM


Re: What IC means and what it doesn't.
So, we both agree that the regulatory mechanisms for the beta-galactosidase gene, are complex. This experiment only elucidates the control mechanisms for the metabolism of lactose. This among other observations is a clear evidence for ID.
Funny, but I see it completely disproving a major tenant of ID - that complex regulatory mechanisms (among other things) are too complex to come about by natural selection and random mutation. Since they did exactly that in the experiment, that's proof that ID is false, not that it is true.

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inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6111 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 144 of 304 (311754)
05-14-2006 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by crashfrog
05-10-2006 7:52 PM


Re: What IC means and what it doesn't.
No not at all. The experiment only proves the complex mechanisms within the cell. Just because some one elucidated the complex mechanism does not make it simpler at all. Once again we have the same old fundamental question: How did this complex organization come about?

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Replies to this message:
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 642 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 145 of 304 (311830)
05-14-2006 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by inkorrekt
05-14-2006 3:13 PM


Re: What IC means and what it doesn't.
How did this complexity come about.
Genetic varation followed by natural selection.

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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 146 of 304 (311834)
05-14-2006 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by inkorrekt
05-10-2006 7:50 PM


Re: What IC means and what it doesn't.
So, we both agree that the regulatory mechanisms for the beta-galactosidase gene, are complex.
Actually I made a definition of "complex" in a way that could be measured, then used it, and then showed that it was irrelevant to the issue.
The function is what is important and now how many parts are needed to accomplish the function. If the function is done with 2 or 200 parts the organism still benefits from the function.
Of course fewer parts is more efficient, and natural selection would tend to pick more efficient alternatives to do the same function -- and thus natural selection would tend to select for ones where extraneous parts have been removed, tending to make final solutions meet the definition of "irreducible complexity" ...
... disregarding the fact that "complexity" is meaningless. I could just as easily say "irreducible arrangement" and be much closer to a valid description.
This among other observations is a clear evidence for ID.
No, it is clear evidence of evolution because that is what was observed.
This is one hard core solid fact about science: when a concept is invalidated it has been proven to be false.
This experiment is a total, complete invalidation of the concept that "irreducible complexity" is 'evidence' for "ID" and no amount of denial changes that fact -- "IC" is not evidence for "ID" because "IC" evolves naturally and easily.
Thus "IC" as evidence for "ID" is a falsified concept.
Thus this cannot be evidence for "ID" -- it is logically impossible.
Enjoy.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 147 of 304 (311906)
05-15-2006 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by inkorrekt
05-14-2006 3:13 PM


Re: What IC means and what it doesn't.
The experiment only proves the complex mechanisms within the cell. Just because some one elucidated the complex mechanism does not make it simpler at all.
But that's not what happened. The mechanism was not "elucidated", it was completely destroyed, and then a replacement developed from random mutation and natural selection.
As I said, this disproves a basic canard of intelligent design - random mutation and natural selection cannot give rise to complexity. Since we directly observed them do just that in this experiment, that statement is proven false by observation.
How did this complex organization come about?
The experiment proves how it came about - random mutation and natural selection.

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 Message 144 by inkorrekt, posted 05-14-2006 3:13 PM inkorrekt has not replied

ramoss
Member (Idle past 642 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 148 of 304 (311917)
05-15-2006 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by inkorrekt
05-10-2006 7:50 PM


Re: What IC means and what it doesn't.
And how do you reach that conclusion? What is the basis for it? It seems your logic is "It's complex, I can't understand it, therefore god"

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ohnhai
Member (Idle past 5192 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 149 of 304 (311918)
05-15-2006 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by RAZD
05-14-2006 9:43 PM


Re: What IC means and what it doesn't.
RAZD writes:
This among other observations is a clear evidence for ID.
No, it is clear evidence of evolution because that is what was observed.
This is one hard core solid fact about science: when a concept is invalidated it has been proven to be false.
This experiment is a total, complete invalidation of the concept that "irreducible complexity" is 'evidence' for "ID" and no amount of denial changes that fact -- "IC" is not evidence for "ID" because "IC" evolves naturally and easily.
Thus "IC" as evidence for "ID" is a falsified concept.
Thus this cannot be evidence for "ID" -- it is logically impossible.
Indeed. Observed IC, achieved through recorded Evolution events does not ID make! Quite the opposite infact.
Edited by ohnhai, : added quote block (and sig)

All things being equal, It's time to tip the scales...
Ohnhai
http://www.ohnhai.com http://www.thewildmachines.com

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 150 of 304 (312607)
05-16-2006 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by ohnhai
05-15-2006 9:11 AM


Re: What IC means and what it doesn't.
Quite the opposite infact.
Not sure I can go that far.
Lets break it down ...
The "IC=ID" argument:
(1)if {A} then {B}
(2) if {B} then {C}
where {A} = {IC} is NOT {E}
and {B} = {something else happened}
and {C} = {godidit} (whispered very quietly)
The problem is we have NOT{A}, and thus can make no conclusions about {B}.
Logically {C} is now an unfounded (logically false) conclusion, but not impossible either.

Join the effort to unravel {AIDSHIV} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
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