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Author Topic:   Absolute Morality...again.
lfen
Member (Idle past 4708 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 137 of 300 (334123)
07-21-2006 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by robinrohan
07-21-2006 3:42 PM


Re: writing absolute rules: the problem of language
Consider the word STOP on a stop sign. What does it mean?
Well, in Oregon as I understand the law it means the vehicle comes to a complete stop before proceeding. There are exceptions to this I imagine such as emergency vehicles with lights and sirens having the right away. And by extension someone rushing a dying infant to a hospital would probably not be prosecuted if they ran a stop sign on the way to the emergency room.
I don't think this is a useful example of literalism. For one thing not being a literalist doesn't mean one denies that there are cases of literalism, but rather one doesn't hold that literalism is sufficient.
For that matter I think even literalist recognize some examples of figurative language. They don't hold that when someone says "my heart leaped into my throat" that they mean the anatomically location of their heart changed to their throat.
The fact that I find a literal interpretation of a stop sign meaningful doesn't mean I interpret all language literally.
I'm a bit puzzled why you even posted this example I don't see it as meaningful. Have you heard people arguing about the meaning? And even so when shown the legal definition did they continue to have problems?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by robinrohan, posted 07-21-2006 3:42 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by robinrohan, posted 07-21-2006 10:30 PM lfen has replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4708 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 153 of 300 (334204)
07-22-2006 4:58 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by robinrohan
07-21-2006 10:30 PM


Re: writing absolute rules: the problem of language
I'm talking about a theory of language. I just called it "literalism."
If one word does not need interpretation, then there's no reason why many words should."
Is this an existing theory or one you are developing? Have you considered Wittgenstein's writings on language?
Are you defining concept as something non verbal? How are you defining concept?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by robinrohan, posted 07-21-2006 10:30 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by robinrohan, posted 07-22-2006 11:16 AM lfen has replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4708 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 175 of 300 (334266)
07-22-2006 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by robinrohan
07-22-2006 11:16 AM


Re: writing absolute rules: the problem of language
Yes, it would have to be non-verbal.
I'm not sure then what you are working with. I know I would look at neurology and not just of humans. I am lately looking at what I think of as the innate knowledge of the organism as the foundation for our living.
By this I mean the organism pre conceptually knows a lot of important functions like how to breathe, how to chew, secrete saliva, stomach acid , etc. Also how to reach, move, just the animal survival skills. When you consider these functions do they resemble what you mean by concepts?
Or are you thinking of something along the lines of Plato's archetypes, perhaps?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by robinrohan, posted 07-22-2006 11:16 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by robinrohan, posted 07-22-2006 1:31 PM lfen has replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4708 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 191 of 300 (334294)
07-22-2006 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by robinrohan
07-22-2006 1:31 PM


Re: writing absolute rules: the problem of language
I actually never got around to reading or figuring out what all this post this and that stuff was about.
Do you recall that in Euclidean geometry certain terms are undefined. You have these axioms and you just have to intuitively accept that you know what a point is for example. Is a point in Euclidean geometry an example of a concept in your system?
The non-verbal concept would be the meaning of the text.
Now I'm thinking you are using "non-verbal concept" in the way that I would use referent. "Tomato" is a word for a thing you can eat. I ask you for a tomato and you hand me an apple we have had an unsuccesful communication. If I ask you for a tomato and you hand me something that I find satisfactory then our communication succeeded. This is very elementary description of language but is this what you are talking about?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by robinrohan, posted 07-22-2006 1:31 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by robinrohan, posted 07-22-2006 5:12 PM lfen has replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4708 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 200 of 300 (334316)
07-22-2006 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by robinrohan
07-22-2006 5:12 PM


Re: writing absolute rules: the problem of language
If it means exactly the same thing, then we have a concept.
"means" is a difficult criterion, and to mean exactly the same thing seems very difficult. If you want everyone to select a tomato from a group of items that is one thing,but what about people who dislike tomatos vs. those who love them? What about those who believe they are poisonous vs. those who believe they are healthy? Given the individual conditionings how can tomato mean the exact same thing to any two people. I hold it is impossible. On the other hand it is reasonable to expect a large group of people to accurately identify a tomato even though they will have unique responses and associations to it.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by robinrohan, posted 07-22-2006 5:12 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by robinrohan, posted 07-22-2006 6:53 PM lfen has replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4708 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 215 of 300 (334438)
07-22-2006 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by robinrohan
07-22-2006 6:53 PM


tomato as functional reference vs. the tomato in itself
The concept is precise and can be communicated no matter what words are used.
Well, I hope then that what you are calling "concept" is a functional identification rather than some absolute ideal of tomato in itself.
Why? partly because language is context sensitive. There is the edible fruit that grows on plants and that we eat. But I could also ask you to select a tomato from a group of photographs, or plastic representations of food for instance. Do we ever know exactly what a tomato is? I don't think so. What we have is the ability to function in regards to tomatoes.
We can plant, harvest, purchase, slice, can etc. a tomato all the while not really knowing everything there is to know about it. If by concept you mean something like Plato's archetype of a tomato then I don't follow you.
If this functional usage is what you mean then literalism doesn't give you absolute knowledge but rather functional knowledge. Language as utility not as truth. My claim is that literalism occurs when people think that by naming something they have understood it and know it in some absolute total way. The belief that words can give one absolute certainty and assurance of knowledge is what I mean by the error of literalism.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by robinrohan, posted 07-22-2006 6:53 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by robinrohan, posted 07-23-2006 8:15 AM lfen has not replied
 Message 222 by Faith, posted 07-23-2006 8:44 AM lfen has not replied

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