iano writes:
There is one reason for being saved (if you are saved). God saved you. And one reason to 'burn in Hell' (if you 'burn in Hell') - your rejection of his attempts to save you.
Rick writes:
God "saved" us from what? You keep skirting around what one actually has to do to go to hell.
I've inserted a parethesis on both statements above. Everyone is born unsaved. That's the default, so it should be read in that context: God hasn't saved collective, universal 'us'. He has saved those who have been saved. Everyone else remains lost until such time (if ever) they are saved. All can be. Not all will be.
Saved from what? The post below covers more broadly what salvation involves. It is all to easy to concentrate on one aspect of it (being saved from exposure to Gods wrath against our sin) but it is multi-facetted thing.
http://
EvC Forum: Great Debate: Romans 1-9 - Larni and Iano -->
EvC Forum: Great Debate: Romans 1-9 - Larni and Iano
What does one have to do to remain unsaved?
Reject Gods attempts to save. I've pictured it before as people being born on a sliding slope down, at the end of which is Hell. God attempts to grasp the person in order to arrest the slide. If the person does nothing at all then grasped they will be. If the person pushes His hand away then he cannot grasp (he will not go against their will) and slide on they do.
Examples in real life?
Morals aren't relative. He will work to convince you that the wrong you do is actually wrong (without revealing himself to be the source of the absolutedness of morals just yet - that would interfere with you free will to reject his attempt). The way you reject this call is to insist that morals aren't absolute which has the effect that you must justify your wrong (according to him) actions by claiming to yourself and others that what you did isn't wrong. You'll do it, but somewhere inside you will know your fooling yourself. It has little to do with the wrong you do and everything to do with your response to his attempt to convince you that it is wrong. If, for example, you found yourself struggling (even unto despair) not to do a particular thing that you felt was wrong, yet found yourself failing again and again - then this is good. You have been convinced, you haven't rejected: that you keep doing it is far less important than that you are convinced.
Look at nature. There is argument to say it all happened through chance and that no God is required to explain it. Except that the explaination doesn't explain it. Life from nothing? Science is silent it can never conclude this. Where did the universe come from? Science is silent it can never conclude. Science can tell you the world isn't flat but it cannot but shoot in the dark on these things. But the questions remain. If you chose to believe that it was all the result of chance and accident when there is no argument to say that it did (other than "we don't know yet but we will someday") then you are rejecting. Sheer common sense tells you that accidents don't produce this and in the face of no compelling argument either way you should be convinced by all around you that this is the work of a mind boggling supreme intelligence. We don't have to able to do this ourselves to recognise that it was done. The hallmarks are there.
You are going to be approached by Christians on the street. They will knock on your door. They will talk to you here. You will see a billboard or a tv programme about God. Or a radio talkshow. There will be crap in amongst it but watch out for the following:
An occasion will arise where such an approach occurs in a form like above or some other. Your reaction will be to turn away, to reject. But examine the situation as it happens and ask yourself what is the specific reason to do with THIS occurance which would cause you to turn away from THIS specific occurance (forget in other words the negative conditioning of charlatans). If you find there is none then do it. As soon as you decide to do it you'll get a "nah, I couldn't be bothered" thought running through your head. See this fresh rejection as simply a repeat of your first and reiterate the questioning as to why not in THIS particular case.
For example: 5 years before I became a Christian I was in a book shop in Holland. I had never read the Bible , I doubt I had ever even held one in my hands (although I vaguely recall considering rolling a joint from one of its thin pages). I had absolutely no interest in it. Standing at the counter to pay for the books I had picked, I noticed a small stand on the counter with little pocket books on it. Amongst them were the gospels; one little book for each one. In the spur of the moment I bought Luke. When I got home I opened it and scanned a couple of pages but it seemed very boring so I stuck it on the bookshelf. That was the end of that. I saw it on the bookshelf from time to time and thought to myself: "must pick that up and give it a go". But I never did. I rejected. And so it ebbed and flowed.
That's the way it can go: no big headlines, no super significant decision. Just thousands upon thousands of tugs from him. Everyday he tugs, through conscience, through nature, through the words you read here, through people you meet. And you reject or not the whole time. I suppose a person is damned if they remain in rejection. There doesn come a time when God will cease calling. He will not suffer rejection forever. You aren't necessarily called up to the day you die. It might well be the final moment before death when you respond finally and say "Lord...". For besides the general call, God calls effectually, ie: at some point he issues a call to which you WILL respond and turn to him. He issues that when you have been brought to the point where you are ready to accept him on his terms(even though you still don't know him). Then he delivers the coup d'etat and you die. And are born again.
This is why altar calls and such are problematic. Sure, people are saved then. But only because they have been brought to that point by him. For other who come forward and recite a prayer nothing happens. For mouthing words that he hasn't prepared you to say will have no effect.
Would faith in Allah count as a "rejection"?
Allah, Buddha, Scientism, Yoga, Materialism, success, pursuit of happiness,philosophy couldn't-care-less-about-lifes-questions. All the same thing: all ways to avoid his call.
™ Version 4.2
