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Author Topic:   How would you evolutionists explain this?
?????
Inactive Junior Member


Message 1 of 29 (33753)
03-06-2003 10:36 AM


Evolution trys to explain the beginning of the earth and its beings with science, as i take it. But how can you explain it with science when it defies science? For example, Laws of thermo-dynamics, they say that energy cannot be created or destroyed. So how all did this happen?

Plus the law of cause and effect. This law is commonly used and accepted throughout all fields of science. Evolution is based of chance and natural selection. Chance suggests creation without creator. It had to start somewhere right?


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Message 2 of 29 (33759)
03-06-2003 11:45 AM


Thread moved here from the The Great Debate forum.
    
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 29 (33818)
03-07-2003 2:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by ?????
03-06-2003 10:36 AM


????? who are you?
Frequently Given Answer no. 523:

Biological evolution has nothing directly linked to the Big Bang.


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Karl
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 29 (33827)
03-07-2003 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by ?????
03-06-2003 10:36 AM


quote:
Evolution trys to explain the beginning of the earth and its beings with science, as i take it.

You take it wrong. Evolution describes and explains change over time in populations of organisms.

quote:
But how can you explain it with science when it defies science? For example, Laws of thermo-dynamics, they say that energy cannot be created or destroyed.

What is the total energy of the Universe? Do you know?

quote:
So how all did this happen?

Define "all this" and we might be able to help.

quote:
Plus the law of cause and effect. This law is commonly used and accepted throughout all fields of science. Evolution is based of chance and natural selection. Chance suggests creation without creator. It had to start somewhere right?

The concept of "creation" is a theological construct, not a scientific one. You are playing word-games if you try to say "we'll call this creation, therefore it must have a Creator".


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compmage
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 601
From: South Africa
Joined: 08-04-2005


Message 5 of 29 (33833)
03-07-2003 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by ?????
03-06-2003 10:36 AM


????? writes:

quote:
Plus the law of cause and effect. This law is commonly used and accepted throughout all fields of science.

To paraphrase Dr. Nathaniel Branden, "To demand a cause for all existence is to demand a contradiction. If the cause exists it is part of existence, if it does not exist, it can not be a cause."

quote:
Chance suggests creation without creator.

Who says it was created? And if it was, who created the creator?

quote:
It had to start somewhere right?

Why?

------------------
He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife.
- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy

[This message has been edited by compmage, 03-07-2003]


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?????
Inactive Junior Member


Message 6 of 29 (34118)
03-11-2003 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by compmage
03-07-2003 8:39 AM


------------------------------------------------------------------
To paraphrase Dr. Nathaniel Branden, "To demand a cause for all existence is to demand a contradiction. If the cause exists it is part of existence, if it does not exist, it can not be a cause."
------------------------------------------------------------------

HOw can you have somthing without a cause? Things don't just happen for no apparent reason.

-?????


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Percy
Member
Posts: 17861
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 7 of 29 (34121)
03-11-2003 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by ?????
03-11-2003 10:04 AM


Compmage is pointing out a contradiction in your position. You're demanding an ultimate cause for the scientific perspective, but not of the religious perspective.

For example, if you insist of science that the Big Bang have an origin, then you must equally insist of religion that the Big Being have an origin. And if your answer for the Big Being is that he has existed forever, then why do you reject the same answer for the universe?

--Percy


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Karl
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 29 (34165)
03-12-2003 6:19 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by ?????
03-11-2003 10:04 AM


quote:
HOw can you have somthing without a cause? Things don't just happen for no apparent reason.

Oh, but they do, every day. Take a million carbon 14 atoms. Sooner or later one of them decays. What decides which one it is?

If there were a cause, we would know whether Shrodinger's cat was alive or dead.*

(*It's probably really snuck out the box and is fast asleep at the bottom of the cleaners' cupboard, but that's beside the point.)


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compmage
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 601
From: South Africa
Joined: 08-04-2005


Message 9 of 29 (34169)
03-12-2003 6:49 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by ?????
03-11-2003 10:04 AM


????? writes:

quote:
HOw can you have somthing without a cause? Things don't just happen for no apparent reason.

If you read the quote carefully you would understand what Dr. Branden, and myself by proxy, are trying to say. Besides the gist of the rest of the post, which Percipient picked up on and already explained to you, this quote speaks specifically to the contradiction involved in demanding a cause for all existence. Note that 'all' here refers to existence in its entirety and not each object that exists individually.

Here is the larger context on the quote. It really isn't that difficult to understand.

quote:
Within the universe, the emergence of new entities can be explained in terms of the actions of entities that already exist. All actions presuppose the existence of entities that caused their emergence. All causality presupposes the existence of something that acts as a cause. To demand a cause for all of existence is to demand a contradiction: if the cause exists, it is part of existence; if it does not exist, it cannot be a cause. Causality presupposes existence, existence does not presuppose causality. Existence-not "God"-is the First Cause.
- Dr. Nathaniel Branden

It goes something like this:

Question: What is the cause of all existence?

Answer: X is the cause.

Question: But for X to be a cause, X has to exist. How can X be a cause if it doesn't yet exist?

If you think about this you will more than likely come to the following conclusion: either something exists or existed that didn't have a cause or 'existence' has always been (i.e infinite regression or something having always existed).

------------------
He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife.
- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy


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Sylas
Member (Idle past 3208 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 10 of 29 (34213)
03-12-2003 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ?????
03-06-2003 10:36 AM




Evolution trys to explain the beginning of the earth and its beings with science, as i take it.

No; evolution tries to explain the origin of new species from previous and very different species. [Already mentioned by others]



But how can you explain it with science when it defies science? For example, Laws of thermo-dynamics, they say that energy cannot be created or destroyed.

I think you have mixed up your criticisms. Nothing in the evolution of species, or in the formation of the earth, involves creation or destruction of energy. That would be a violation of the first law of thermodynamics. Most creationists use the second law, which is that heat does not flow spontaneously from one source to another at a higher temperature; or (equivalently) that no process can result in a net decrease in entropy. Nothing in evolution or the formation of the Earth violates that law either.



So how all did this happen?

Plus the law of cause and effect. This law is commonly used and accepted throughout all fields of science. Evolution is based of chance and natural selection. Chance suggests creation without creator. It had to start somewhere right?


Evolution does involve cause and effect, and a mix of random and non-random processes; much like nearly everything that goes in this world. Your own development as an individual from a single cell involves a combination of chance and regularity. Does this suggest that you, individually, have no creator?


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Jeptha
Unregistered


Message 11 of 29 (34394)
03-14-2003 4:58 PM


“Compmage is pointing out a contradiction in your position. You're demanding an ultimate cause for the scientific perspective, but not of the religious perspective.

For example, if you insist of science that the Big Bang have an origin, then you must equally insist of religion that the Big Being have an origin. And if your answer for the Big Being is that he has existed forever, then why do you reject the same answer for the universe?”

JEP: Let’s see if I can add to this thread. Something started this thing we call the big bang. Things in motion have to be put into motion by something; and we can tell simply by observing our universe around us, that it is expanding rapidly. So, what caused this?

Something did and it could not have come from our universe because our universe did not exist before the big bang.

Our three spatial dimensions of height, width and depth and our fourth dimension called time were created in the big bang. Before the bang, there were no spatial dimensions in our universe in which to put anything that it could exist. There also was no time in which anything could exist. The basel element of the very word called existence requires a space-time constituent in order to be sensical.
So, we can determine that something ‘caused’ this universe.

If God exists then doesn’t He also require a cause? No. And for the very same reasons that the big bang DOES require a cause. If God created the universe and before this creation there was no time, then we can quickly determine that there was no such thing as the words before and after because they are dependent on time. If there is no such thing as a ‘before God,’ then it becomes a moot question to ask what created him because nothing could have pre-existed Him in order to ‘cause’ Him. God just always was. Interestingly enough, this is what the Bible teaches and I find it fascinating that it also teaches that the dimension called eternity that God lives in is a time-less phenomenon.

Please read the writings of philosopher Auther Custance for more on this.


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Percy
Member
Posts: 17861
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 12 of 29 (34401)
03-14-2003 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Jeptha
03-14-2003 4:58 PM


Jeptha writes:

God just always was.

And you know this how?

--Percy


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Jeptha
Unregistered


Message 13 of 29 (34404)
03-14-2003 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Percy
03-14-2003 6:06 PM


Because it can be logically deduced:

P1 If God 'caused' the big bang He would have had to pre-exist the big bang.

P2 Time was created in the big bang and therefore did not pre-exist the big bang.

Conc: Therefore, God pre-existed time.

Syllogism II:

P1 God pre-existed time.

P2 The term 'before' is a nonsensical term when no time is present.

Conc. Therefore, there is no such thing as 'before God.'

Can you see that if God does exist and there is no 'before God,' then it is quite logical to state that He always was?


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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5351
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 14 of 29 (34412)
03-14-2003 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Jeptha
03-14-2003 6:25 PM


quote:
Can you see that if God does exist...

Sure, I can see that, but why, logically, add another whole layer of causation into the start of our universe just because you'ld prefer some sort of afterlife? If time was created in the Big Bang, why not leave it at that?
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Jeptha
Unregistered


Message 15 of 29 (34417)
03-14-2003 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Coragyps
03-14-2003 8:11 PM


“quote”
Sure, I can see that, but why, logically, add another whole layer of causation into the start of our universe just because you'ld prefer some sort of afterlife? If time was created in the Big Bang, why not leave it at that? “/quote”

JEP: That is a very valid question. But could I get you to see that, to me, it’s not a matter of any preference I have—but it’s more of a personal belief that this is the way things are in reality?

Of course, I could just be dead wrong and there is no God at all. I certainly don’t get it right all the time. But I think there is, and if there is, then inquiring minds want to understand the universe He created.

And finally, of course, part of the syllogism post was simply to overcome the old argument that if everything has a cause then God must have a cause. Taint necessarily that way.


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