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Author Topic:   The Flood - Animals and their minimum food requirement
kuresu
Member (Idle past 1703 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 211 of 239 (346896)
09-06-2006 1:52 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by obvious Child
09-06-2006 12:28 AM


Re: Query about figures.
oh. that makes total (non)sense. go figure


All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences
This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by obvious Child, posted 09-06-2006 12:28 AM obvious Child has responded

Replies to this message:
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obvious Child
Member (Idle past 544 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 212 of 239 (346907)
09-06-2006 2:47 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by kuresu
09-06-2006 1:52 AM


Re: Query about figures.
{identify problem with a scientific Genesis} => {insert ad-hoc spastic, insane asylum style reasoning} => {self gratifying plausability to maintain worldview}

(shameless stolen from another user here)

Magic makes everything better. Have a problem? Magic solves it!


This message is a reply to:
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PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 707
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 213 of 239 (346941)
09-06-2006 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by johnfolton
09-05-2006 8:00 PM


Re: Query about figures.
Where did the heat go, did the vacuum absorb it away?

In a word NO.
Vacuum has ZERO heat capacity. It cannot and will not absorb heat under any (non magical) circumstances. Vacuum is a perfect (almost) insulator. That is why they make thermos flasks and cryogenic gas tanks with a vacuum between the layers. It keeps the heat or cold right where it is.

I have no physical problem with launching a bunch of stuff into space but it has nothing to do with heat rising in that circumstance.

What we would have then is a bunch of superheated steam being forced into space. (Of course you must realize that it would have to leave the geysers at something close to 25,000 miles per hour right?)
Once in space, the water molecules will spread out to put as much distance as possible between them and begin to (very very slowly) cool by radiating the excess heat away. Remember that this radiation will also go back down toward the earth as well as into space.

Now your situation is this. You have millions of cubic miles of superheated steam orbiting the earth. (original 800 degrees plus friction from the incredible velocity at which it was ejected.) When the stuff begins to fall back to earth it now has an additional (massive) ammount of energy stored up as potential energy due to its height above ground. It will release this energy into the atmosphere as it falls. That is one hell of a lot of heat!

They used heat to separate the two fluids; then they brought them back together in a near vacuum environment, the water experienced a phase change to remix with the salt at a very low temperature in an absorber, water vaporizes cold enough to produce 46F chilled water.)

There is nothing magical about this.
It is a perfectly well understood mechanism that any science undergrad and most high school students could explain to you.
The fact remains that you have to put energy into the system to cool the water. The system as a whole, increases in temperature.

This is not what happens in our upper atmosphere. If it did then the process itself would fry the earth with its excess heat.
The Earth is effectively a closed system, encased in the (almost) perfect insulator of interplanetary space. If you produce heat somewhere you are stuck with it for the next several thousand years.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by johnfolton, posted 09-05-2006 8:00 PM johnfolton has responded

Replies to this message:
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JonF
Member
Posts: 2826
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 214 of 239 (346946)
09-06-2006 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by PurpleYouko
09-06-2006 9:16 AM


Re: Query about figures.
What we would have then is a bunch of superheated steam being forced into space. (Of course you must realize that it would have to leave the geysers at something close to 25,000 miles per hour right?)

Oh, no problem. A Few Silly Flaws In Walter Brown's Hydroplate Theory. Now, the problem is keeping it in the Solar Syatem and getting it back to Earth. Oh, and it probably took the whole atmosphere with it, by entrainment. But we'll just direct God to do a few more miracles, no worries.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by PurpleYouko, posted 09-06-2006 9:16 AM PurpleYouko has not yet responded

  
sidelined 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 215 of 239 (346956)
09-06-2006 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by johnfolton
09-05-2006 5:15 PM


Re: Query about figures.
johnfolton

Why would Noah not use brass to construct a gate, it would not rust or bind. genesis 4:22

No problem there except the brass still has to fit in a frame of wood and again you have the problem of the swelling in 100% humidity now closing tightly on a brass containing door.

And you have no answer for how the animals kept from overheating due to lack of evaporation of sweat.Nor for the waste that the animals produced.

Remember this is only a tiny proportion of the difficulties that arise from the flood story. We might also ask of what food did Noah and his family eat and how did they cook it on a sealed vessel?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by johnfolton, posted 09-05-2006 5:15 PM johnfolton has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by johnfolton, posted 09-06-2006 12:08 PM sidelined has responded

  
johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2020 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 216 of 239 (346961)
09-06-2006 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by PurpleYouko
09-06-2006 9:16 AM


Re: Query about figures.
Once in space, the water molecules will spread out to put as much distance as possible between them and begin to (very very slowly) cool by radiating the excess heat away.

I was under the impression that water becomes steam only because its under pressure remove the pressure and it cools quite quickly because its no longer under pressure.

Please explain black radiation making it not possible for steam to cool quite quickly in the natural once its pressure is removed as in a vacuum as stated in the article that it cools quite quickly to 46 degrees F to a clear chilled water vapor.

Explain why I need to keep heating my hot water heater if this black radiation takes so long to dissipate its heat.

http://www.energysolutionscenter.org/tech/tech_absorpchill.asp

The Hydroplate senerio critic that JonF brought up is a good analogy however it does not mention that the water blasted laterally out from beneath the earth so the water would of not of been necessarily been blasted out of orbit.

Here is a different article about the making of snow which hopefully will explain how water vapor coming down from above the atmosphere and meeting with the compressed atmosphere below would produce snow.

This explains the rapid glatiation of the northern hemisphere in that what was happening is quite similar to how they make snow in the natural world.

http://rabi.phys.virginia.edu/105/2000/ps9a.html

The compressed air enters the nozzle at ambient temperature but as it expands into the open air, this high-density air cools dramatically. It is doing work on the open air, pushing that open air out of its way to make room for itself as it expands to normal density and pressure. Doing this work takes away a good fraction of the compressed air's thermal energy, so it becomes quite cold. Heat flows into it from the water droplets and those water droplets freeze into artificial snow.

Edited by johnfolton, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by PurpleYouko, posted 09-06-2006 9:16 AM PurpleYouko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by PurpleYouko, posted 09-06-2006 12:48 PM johnfolton has responded

  
johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2020 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 217 of 239 (346962)
09-06-2006 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by sidelined
09-06-2006 11:00 AM


Re: Query about figures.
No problem there except the brass still has to fit in a frame of wood and again you have the problem of the swelling in 100% humidity now closing tightly on a brass containing door.

Water vapor is clear even at 100 percent humidity, if the temperature is cooler there would not be a problem within the ark given the ark was pitched within and without.

Remember this is only a tiny proportion of the difficulties that arise from the flood story. We might also ask of what food did Noah and his family eat and how did they cook it on a sealed vessel?

I couldn't find in genesis saying the ark was a sealed vessel, it mentions a window a cubit to fashion it above. Normal air circulation would of supplied fresh clear air from above by the water being diverted away.

And you have no answer for how the animals kept from overheating due to lack of evaporation of sweat.Nor for the waste that the animals produced.

If the window was running a cubit the length of the roof was closed but not sealed, then by normal air convection would drive the hot air out and the cooler air within the ark.

Edited by johnfolton, : No reason given.

Edited by johnfolton, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by sidelined, posted 09-06-2006 11:00 AM sidelined has responded

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PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 707
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 218 of 239 (346971)
09-06-2006 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by johnfolton
09-06-2006 12:07 PM


Re: Query about figures.
I was under the impression that water becomes steam only because its under pressure remove the pressure and it cools quite quickly because its no longer under pressure.

Oh I see where your misunderstanding is coming from now.
Water becomes steam (converts from liquid to gas phase or boils) depending on pressure and temperature. At sea level, (one atmosphere) it becomes steam (gas) at 100 degrees C. If you move it up a high mountain then it boils at a much lower temperature.
Put it in a vacuum and it instantly boils no matter what the temperature is. Pressure is the only thing that keeps it liquid.
Have a look at the phase diagram for water/ice/vapor

Please explain black radiation making it not possible for steam to cool quite quickly in the natural once its pressure is removed as in a vacuum as stated in the article that it cools quite quickly to 46 degrees F to a clear chilled water vapor.

As for the temperature, that is down to the rate of molecular vibration and is independent of pressure entirely. The water molecule can only get rid of its heat (vibration) by passing it on to something else. In a vacuum there is nothing to pass it on too except for infrared low energy photons (black-body radiation) so it will remain very very hot for a long long time.
Gasses always want to expand to fill up all available space around them in order to equalize pressures. In space the volume to fill is pretty much infinite so the molecules will continue to move away from each other until they no longer interact with each other in any way. The vast majority of the stuff would never return to earth at all once it gets into space.

Explain why I need to keep heating my hot water heater if this black radiation takes so long to dissipate its heat.

because your hot water tank is NOT in a vacuum and can therefore lose heat to its surroundings by conduction. The pipes that come out of it feel hot right? That is conduction.

The compressed air enters the nozzle at ambient temperature but as it expands into the open air, this high-density air cools dramatically. It is doing work on the open air, pushing that open air out of its way to make room for itself as it expands to normal density and pressure. Doing this work takes away a good fraction of the compressed air's thermal energy, so it becomes quite cold. Heat flows into it from the water droplets and those water droplets freeze into artificial snow.

This is basic physics. Nothing tricky here.
and incidentally this is not the entire quote from your site. it makes more sense with the entire thing included.
First it asks the question.....
quote:
To speed the freezing process, the jet from the water nozzle mixes with the jet from a compressed air nozzle. Air spraying out of this second nozzle not only breaks up the water into tiny droplets, but it helps to cool and freeze those droplets as well. However, the compressed air and the water both enter their nozzles at the same temperature--about 0 °C. Explain how this expanding jet of compressed air is able to help chill the water jet.

then it goes on to answer the question...

quote:

Answer: The expanding air does work on the surrounding air and its temperature decreases as a result. Heat flows out of the water jet into this expanding jet of air and the water freezes into ice

The jet of air absorbs heat from the jet of water as it expands.

In this example the air starts out at ambient temperature (which is actually Zero degrees C) then gives away heat to the surounding air as it expands (by conduction). It then absorbs latent heat from the water to re-equilibrate itself with the ambient temperature. This forces the water to go through a phase change (to ice) but without actually changing temperature at all.

As I said, basic physics. (and horribly over-simplified physics too)
No heat gained and no heat lost overall.
Now imagine the same scenario with a superheated jet of water vapor that is expanding into the atmosphere from a giant geyser.
Using the same principle it is going to cool (slightly) as it expands. How is it going to do this?
By giving up heat to the surrounding air. ie. making it hotter.
There is just no way that you could ever get ice out of this scenario. What you WILL get is steam cooling from 190 degrees to 150 degrees (number just dragged out of thin air at random) and the missing 40 degrees being given up to the surrounding air. If the air had an ambient temperature of 25 degree before, then it will now be at 65 degrees.
Somewhat uncomfortable to breath I would think.
certainly no ice forming anywhere on the planet.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by johnfolton, posted 09-06-2006 12:07 PM johnfolton has responded

Replies to this message:
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sidelined 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 219 of 239 (346975)
09-06-2006 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by johnfolton
09-06-2006 12:08 PM


Re: Query about figures.
johnfolton

Water vapor is clear even at 100 percent humidity, if the temperature is cooler there would not be a problem within the ark given the ark was pitched within and without.

If the temperature dropped it would become fog. Nonetheless the wood still expands and has nothing to do with the pitch.It is the reason a gap is left in doorways of your home ,to permit for expansion in high humidity.The humidity aboard the ark cannot fluctuate since there is no where for it to go.

I couldn't find in genesis saying the ark was a sealed vessel, it mentions a window a cubit to fashion it above. Normal air circulation would of supplied fresh clear air from above by the water being diverted away.

One window does not a circulation make. So even the bible shows that this is not possible. Regardless the 100% humidty would prevent them from lighting kindling as it owuld be saturated after a few days.
Also the clear air itself is at 100%humidity so this does nothin to alleviate the problem.
And we still have the issue of sweat and cooling for the occupants of the ark sir.

Edited by sidelined, : added extra comment


This message is a reply to:
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johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2020 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 220 of 239 (347080)
09-06-2006 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by PurpleYouko
09-06-2006 12:48 PM


Re: Query about figures.
Explain why I need to keep heating my hot water heater if this black radiation takes so long to dissipate its heat.

------------------------------------------------------

because your hot water tank is NOT in a vacuum and can therefore lose heat to its surroundings by conduction. The pipes that come out of it feel hot right? That is conduction.

It appears that infared energy works quite well for cooling water in these heat exchangers rejecting infared radiation into space.

Basically the steamed water molecule in space would be cooling by releasing infared radiation(especially on the dark side of the earth).

REMAINING A VAPOR because its liquid state is only based off pressure and not temp with no pressure it remains in this chilled water vapor state until it is pressurized by the atmosphere.

In the northern hemisphere being in a winter this chilled water vapor pressurized primarily to snow, the evidence is all the glaciation in the northern hemisphere. In the southern hemisphere based on the lack of glaciation returned primarily as rain.

How is there differences in principle in respect to these heat exchangers to the water molecules rejecting infared radiation into space?

http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/news/2001/news-stationcool.asp

In space, objects heat up by absorbing sunlight and can only cool off by emitting infrared energy, transferring the heat by radiation.

First we remove excess heat by this very efficient liquid heat-exchange system," said Gene. "Then we send the energy to radiators that reject the heat into space."


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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4742
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 221 of 239 (347082)
09-06-2006 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by johnfolton
09-06-2006 6:59 PM


You're suspended -- warning to others
I'm suspending you again. For nonsense and being a liar and a disruption.

Others: I'm considering suspending those who reply to whatever/JohnFolton etc. When warned of who he is really when he tries to hide behind a new alias please do NOT respond.


This message is a reply to:
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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 26 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 222 of 239 (347100)
09-06-2006 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Jazzns
06-27-2006 11:49 AM


Re: Dino's you say?
Jazzns:

It seems, if we are trying to make the BEST case for fitting everthing in the ark look rediculous, that we should assume the dinos were not on board. I mean seriously, there were dinos that alone would fill the entire volume of the ark if you ground them up into sausage.

Top creation researchers estimate that Noah could take 55 representative dinosaur 'kinds' onto the ark. If he took less than full-size adults for the largest kinds, everyone could ride in cross-ventilated comfort with plenty of leg room.

According to Genesis 6:15, the Ark measured 300 x 50 x 30 cubits, which is about 460 x 75 x 44 feet, with a volume of about 1.52 million cubic feet. Researchers have shown that this is the equivalent volume of 522 standard railroad stock cars (US), each of which can hold 240 sheep. By the way, only 11% of all land animals are larger than a sheep.

Without getting into all the math, the 16,000-plus animals would have occupied much less than half the space in the Ark (even allowing them some moving-around space).

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2/4264news4-3-2000.asp

:rolleyes:

Edited by Archer Opterix, : Clarity.

Edited by Archer Opterix, : Typo.

Edited by Archer Opterix, : Typo.


Archer

All species are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 1703 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 223 of 239 (347104)
09-06-2006 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Archer Opteryx
09-06-2006 7:47 PM


Re: Dino's you say?
But, as you well know, how can we fit all the food and water on the ark? I think the figures (food and water .1 that required for a single horse) ended up taking up 1.8 million cubic feet--over the 1.52 million cubic feet.

I also question that figure. reason being--what effect do all the support beams and everything else needed to support a ship that size on the inside volume.

oh, and a
onebit, a twobit, a cubit. sounds like cube it.
(yeah, I'm bored . . .)


All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences
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obvious Child
Member (Idle past 544 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 224 of 239 (347180)
09-07-2006 1:04 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by kuresu
09-06-2006 7:56 PM


Re: Dino's you say?
how does a cube shaped ship survive huge broadside waves?
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 26 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 225 of 239 (347184)
09-07-2006 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 224 by obvious Child
09-07-2006 1:04 AM


Re: Dino's you say?
obvious Child;

how does a cube shaped ship survive huge broadside waves?

Most would have trouble. But legendary ships can be pretty sturdy.


Archer

All species are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by obvious Child, posted 09-07-2006 1:04 AM obvious Child has responded

Replies to this message:
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