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Author Topic:   The validity of an Anthropomorphic God
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4617
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 16 of 29 (351857)
09-24-2006 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by working out eating chips
09-23-2006 10:27 PM


God's unfathomable existence
Hi there.

In the book of Genesis it is said that God created man in his image. This can be interpreted various ways

That bit of Genesis I do take literally. I think personally that anthropomorphism cannot be inferred because of the opposite scenario; God truly builing us around what he looks like, a persona.

For a while I thought that intelligence was what made us different from animals, but I think high intelligence alone, doesn't produce a persona. This is a mystery to me, that the persona we have, is not in any animal, therefore, it maybe a truth that that is because we are the only persons. Thus you can get dolphins who have no persona, but do have intelligence.

As for reasoning etc. It's true that we think in subjective terms, so we are prone to hysterics and rash conclusions.

Logis itself doesn't find problems with God, but humans. The key is to find the ability of wisdom, which will allow for the only premisses possible in God's case; speculative ones.

Therefore, this fully gives the human the right, to search out the matter himself, and come to a good conclusion, despite having a ack of knowledge.

My new axiom reads thus; If I cannot understand God, then I'm not meant to, or I'm simply not thinking har denough. :)


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Brian
Member (Idle past 2737 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 17 of 29 (351889)
09-24-2006 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by working out eating chips
09-23-2006 10:27 PM


I have always said that all we can know for sure (if one believes in a deity) is that It exists.

Messenjah writes:

Reply to me when you begin to fully utilize your cognitive ability.

:laugh: Here was me thinking that Piaget was talking sh*t too, just shows how wrong one can be.

Best keep plucking on the guitar.

Brian.


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Hyroglyphx
Member (Idle past 269 days)
Posts: 5512
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 18 of 29 (351911)
09-24-2006 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by working out eating chips
09-23-2006 10:27 PM


Anthropomorphism
I believe that if God exists it cannot be apart of this system. We are but creatures that exist and we must eat, we must sleep, and to an extent we need to be part of a routine to buy food and to have shelter to sleep in. But God perplexes me. I oft sat and questioned "Why this"... It was then that I realized there is no reason. God cannot be held within reason or logic, God cannot be defined by man.

It is without question, in my mind, that God gives enough of Himself to stir our hearts in order to seek Him and ferret out the Truth. But, most assuredly, there could be no way for us to completely wrap our minds around the awesomeness of almighty God without us being God ourselves. I find myself in agreement with you on the implausibility of an anthropomorphic God, but I would be hesitant to impute no logic in the matter or no actual purpose for why God does what He does. Just because we cannot perviece the totality of reason does not neccesarily negate the existence of it. If God does exist I'm sure it will be one of those, "Oh, so that's why its like!" type of things when its all explained to us.


"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt
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working out eating chips
Member (Idle past 1316 days)
Posts: 1623
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 19 of 29 (351931)
09-24-2006 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Hyroglyphx
09-24-2006 8:58 PM


See there lies the problem Nemesis. To continue with the example made in the OP:
There is no valid explanation for the absurdity that is war.

There is no

nemesis_juggernaut writes:

If God does exist I'm sure it will be one of those, "Oh, so that's why its like!" type of things when its all explained to us.


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kuresu
Member (Idle past 291 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 20 of 29 (351932)
09-24-2006 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by working out eating chips
09-24-2006 10:51 PM


problem is, there is a valid explanation for war. It's called human nature. Human nature also explains God, or rather, why we choose to believe in one (or many). It can also explain why we think there is one (or many). Human nature is a valid explanation.


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Butcer 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 21 of 29 (352020)
09-25-2006 7:26 AM


removed spam garbage

Edited by AdminAsgara, : No reason given.


  
working out eating chips
Member (Idle past 1316 days)
Posts: 1623
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 22 of 29 (352117)
09-25-2006 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by kuresu
09-24-2006 10:56 PM


I am merely stating that there are no logical reasons for this creation.
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 291 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 23 of 29 (352122)
09-25-2006 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by working out eating chips
09-25-2006 2:07 PM


is valid the same as logical? (perahps, like 2 + 2 = 22 is still valid, even though it's not right, because it ignores how we actually do do math)

at anyrate, human nature is, still, a logical answer (as near as I can tell).


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working out eating chips
Member (Idle past 1316 days)
Posts: 1623
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 24 of 29 (352131)
09-25-2006 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by kuresu
09-25-2006 2:20 PM


You are not cutting to the heart of it.

Why would a God create a reality such as this?

There is no reason to this question.


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Brian
Member (Idle past 2737 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 25 of 29 (352136)
09-25-2006 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by working out eating chips
09-23-2006 10:27 PM


Old Hat, drive through.
this version of God is held within the Bible and in sermons I imagine.

Why do you imagine it, don’t you know for sure?

In the book of Genesis it is said that God created man in his image. This can be interpreted various ways and I do not want to direct this topic into what we think this means.

So why mention it?

I believe that if God exists it cannot be apart (sic) of this system. We are but creatures that exist and we must eat, we must sleep,

Didn’t God also eat in the Old Testament?

and to an extent we need to be part of a routine to buy food and to have shelter to sleep in.

Ah, you mean like Queen Elizabeth? Yes I often see her down in Tesco’s getting a few supplies in.

Also, we do not always need shelter to sleep in.

But God perplexes me.

Imagine how perplexed you would be if you had a critical mind and weren’t already brainwashed?

I oft sat and questioned "Why this". I imagined the need for men to be of different cultures, traditions and territory. These men they hurt and kill each other in the name of ethnocentrism or patriotism, what have you.

Don’t forget that they also kill because God orders them to.
Remember Joshua was told to slaughter all the innocent women and children in Jericho (and the wee baby animals as well), and recently God told George Bush to invade Iraq.

I asked God why this? What is the point of this?

Did He not answer you?

It was then that I realized there is no reason.

Most sensible people would realise that this is when you should realise that there is no God.

God cannot be held within reason or logic, God cannot be defined by man.

All the mystics say that. God is ineffable. It stands to reason, God cannot be defined because that would place a limit on God. You cannot say God is love because He is meant to be more than love.

For this is my argument against an anthropomorphic God, for when one questions existence, purpose and the various properties of existence one realizes that one cannot logically reason it. God cannot be held within the parameters of human logic, for all we know is that it exists and nothing more.

The problem is though, in order to get an IDEA of what God is like we need to use language, you need to TRY and define God and then forget the characteristics of the definition because God is beyond them. But if you didn’t give a definition, no matter how short of the truth it is, then you wouldn’t have a starting point.

The impossiblity for an anthropomorphic God was easy to see for us, I raised this discussion in the middle of class mind you and my the majority of the other students had no idea what we were talking about. She had to assure them that it was related to our studies of the day.

I think everyone can see the impossibility of an anthropomorphic God, even the staunch Christian.

What you have to remember is that the people who invented God had to give Him characteristics or their audience wouldn’t understand what they were trying to describe.

Take as an example the instructions to the Israelites to make sacrifices to God. Don’t you think it is more likely that they would follow the commands to sacrifice if they it pleased God? I’d say it would, therefore the creators of God claimed that the odour pleased God, what else could they say to describe it to their audience?

As in God doesn't hear, God doesn't see, God isn't good, God cannot be reasoned or boxed in, It simply cannot be described, God doesn't exist.

These arguments are as old as the hills, there is nothing new here. Read Meister Eckhart, you are saying virtually the same as he did. Hope you aren’t plagiarising, you wont go to heaven ;)

I have reasoned this because we are but humans and our minds are limited, the mobility of our minds are limited. We are essentially damned to think in human terms and likeness. We cannot be anything greater than what we inherently are.

I urge you to read some of the writings of the world’s mystics. Don’t limit yourself to Christian mystics because other faiths have nystics that say almost the same thing as Christian mystics do. If you would like a reading list I’d be happy to provide one.

I have always said that all we can know for sure (if one believes in a deity) is that It exists.

A bit of a foxes paw, but I am sure you realise your error here. Try to be more careful in future.

The realization that we are but humans, a limited species can often be disheartening to say the least.

It can also be very very liberating.

(But have you heard the term "ignorance is bliss"? Dylan once said that "if you're not depressed you don't have anything to say.")

But Dylan was a drug addict, probably still is a smack head and an embarrassment to the human species, so I think you should have a more moral role model.

To discuss if this view is valid or invalid this is my purpose here. I believe it is invalid, as I've said God cannot be articulated by man, God cannot be described.

You and several billion people before you I am afraid.

Brian.


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kuresu
Member (Idle past 291 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 26 of 29 (352139)
09-25-2006 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by working out eating chips
09-25-2006 2:38 PM


Well, if you believe in the Fall, then he didn't create it--it's our punishment, this fallen nature of ours.

However, if you don't believe in the flood--why does God use violence in the Old Testement? I mean, he freakin' wipes out whole cities with his wrath? Second--made in our image. The only God we can imagine will have an element of anthromoporphization (something tells me that's spelled wrong). In some odd sort of way, we can then explain that we use war because god uses war, and we are made in his image.

It's a lot easier, though, if there is no God--then it's just plain old human nature, without any absurd punishment or explanations (imho)


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working out eating chips
Member (Idle past 1316 days)
Posts: 1623
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 27 of 29 (352206)
09-25-2006 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Brian
09-25-2006 2:40 PM


Re: Old Hat, drive through.
Don't listen to Dylan after his crash. I never meant it to be something noone has thought of before, it is simply a good topic. I must leave to play a show and I'm very tired.

Edited by -messenjah of one, : sentence structure


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working out eating chips
Member (Idle past 1316 days)
Posts: 1623
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 28 of 29 (352942)
09-28-2006 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Brian
09-25-2006 2:40 PM


Advice for you sir
As I have already said, I was not attempting to create something revolutionary here. People here require the very basics of education, for instance: You write in your post that God "eats" and God "tells" etc. Those statements cannot be written by a "critical mind", I suggest reading. I simply thought it would be a good topic. I know my topics are held to a higher if not meaningless scrutiny because of their quality (comma splice here and there) but you must remember my posts are not novels.

quote:
Imagine how perplexed you would be if you had a critical mind and weren’t already brainwashed?

Statements like this incite a general hopelessness in me. I hope you can realize eventually that you exist. I will defer from responding to your posts unless you have something brilliant to share.

If you do reply I will bear with your words and give you the courtesy of reading it. Another minor suggestion would be that you stop signing your name with a period at the end, for obvious reasons.


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Guido Arbia
Member (Idle past 112 days)
Posts: 548
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 29 of 29 (362088)
11-06-2006 6:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by working out eating chips
09-23-2006 10:27 PM


An Anthropomorphic God is one that is like us, that kills, thinks, sees, looks. This God is the creation by which human beings envision a deity, a creator that is like themselves. This belief is widely popular with evangelists and most church-goers that I know, this version of God is held within the Bible and in sermons I imagine.

Not neccessarily. The bible says we were created in HIS image, not the other way around.

For this is my argument against an anthropomorphic God, for when one questions existence, purpose and the various properties of existence one realizes that one cannot logically reason it. God cannot be held within the parameters of human logic, for all we know is that it exists and nothing more.

Simply because human logic is insufficent to describe the infinite mind of God does not mean that he does not exist.


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