Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 95 (8886 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 01-22-2019 5:32 PM
258 online now:
PaulK, Percy (Admin), Tanypteryx, WookieeB, xongsmith (5 members, 253 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: WookieeB
Post Volume:
Total: 846,178 Year: 1,215/19,786 Month: 1,215/1,731 Week: 195/377 Day: 66/70 Hour: 2/3

Announcements: Switching Over to Cloud Server


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev123
4
56
...
48NextFF
Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Asgara
Member (Idle past 320 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 46 of 711 (372905)
12-30-2006 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by anastasia
12-30-2006 12:06 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
I never said anything about his choosing any outcome either.

If you are created with the eventual outcome known by your creator then how can you have free will. You will do what you are scripted to do, what is already known you will do.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by anastasia, posted 12-30-2006 12:06 AM anastasia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Rob, posted 12-30-2006 12:38 AM Asgara has responded
 Message 52 by anastasia, posted 12-30-2006 10:55 AM Asgara has not yet responded
 Message 62 by Phat, posted 07-15-2015 3:27 PM Asgara has not yet responded

    
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3867 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 47 of 711 (372906)
12-30-2006 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Kader
12-28-2006 1:13 PM


Time and eternity...

I don't understand how can we have free will if God is Omnipotent and Omniscient.
If someone shot you and you died a good christian.

First, God knew you would die. You also died for a reason. (God has a plan). So how can the guy that shot you had any choice but to shoot you ?

Basically did he had any free will ? If he did, how can you explain it ?

Kader, you are asking a very advanced and difficult theological question. If you really want to understand it you can, at least to my own satisfaction. Perhaps your standards are more stringent than my own.

The reason for the 'appearent contradiction' is in our assumption of these things happening not so much at the same time, but in the same time. The paradox is solved by the reality of the eternal realm. It is not disconnected from time, but I like to say that time is superimposed over it. In any case, eternity transcends our dimension of time from whatever point they are connected.

The resolution of this problem is found in the reality of eternity transcending time. If time is a pet concept of yours, then you will enjoy this solution emensely. If you have difficulty conceptualizing such things, then it will mean little.

Rather than try to explain it in my own words, I will defer you to a chapter entitiled 'Time and Beyond time' in the book 'Mere Christianity' by C.S. Lewis. It is most excellent.

Here's a link to that book just croll down to chapter three: http://lib.ru/LEWISCL/mere_engl.txt

Here's an excerpt form the end of the chapter, but you need to read the whole thing:

Another difficulty we get if we believe God to be in time is this.
Everyone who believes in God at all believes that He knows what you and I
are going to do tomorrow. But if He knows I am going to do so-and-so, how
can I be free to do otherwise? Well, here once again, the difficulty comes
from thinking that God is progressing along the Time-line like us: the only
difference being that He can see ahead and we cannot. Well, if that were
true, if God foresaw our acts, it would be very hard to understand how we
could be free not to do them. But suppose God is outside and above the
Time-line. In that case, what we call "tomorrow" is visible to Him in just
the same way as what we call "today." All the days are "Now" for Him. He
does not remember you doing things yesterday; He simply sees you doing them,
because, though you have lost yesterday. He has not. He does not "foresee"
you doing things tomorrow; He simply sees you doing them: because, though
tomorrow is not yet there for you, it is for Him. You never supposed that
your actions at this moment were any less free because God knows what you
are doing. Well, He knows your tomorrow's actions in just the same
way-because He is already in tomorrow and can simply watch you. In a sense,
He does not know your action till you have done it: but then the moment at
which you have done it is already "Now" for Him.
This idea has helped me a good deal. If it does not help you, leave it
alone. It is a "Christian idea" in the sense that great and wise Christians
have held it and there is nothing in it contrary to Christianity. But it is
not in the Bible or any of the creeds. You can be a perfectly good Christian
without accepting it, or indeed without thinking of the matter at all

I recommend the entire book even if you are not inclined to Christianity. It is merely astounding in terms of theological thinking, and quite simple and understandable as well.

:)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Kader, posted 12-28-2006 1:13 PM Kader has not yet responded

    
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3867 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 48 of 711 (372907)
12-30-2006 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Asgara
12-30-2006 12:33 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
If you want the solution to this problem, read message 47.


If we will not learn to eat the only food that the universe grows — the only food that any possible universe ever can grow — then we must starve eternally. (Lewis- The Problem of Pain)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Asgara, posted 12-30-2006 12:33 AM Asgara has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Asgara, posted 12-30-2006 1:00 AM Rob has responded
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 12-30-2006 3:25 AM Rob has responded

    
Asgara
Member (Idle past 320 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 49 of 711 (372911)
12-30-2006 1:00 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Rob
12-30-2006 12:38 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
But it is not in the Bible or any of the creeds.

First off you assume that people haven't read Lewis. Second, it is "merely" an apologetic. Something pulled out of a hat in an attempt to explain a conundrum.

Nice to think of, but no basis except in your mind. If you can make things up to explain what you can't find an explanation for then just say so.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Rob, posted 12-30-2006 12:38 AM Rob has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by anastasia, posted 12-30-2006 11:04 AM Asgara has not yet responded
 Message 55 by Rob, posted 12-30-2006 11:25 AM Asgara has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11916
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 50 of 711 (372926)
12-30-2006 3:20 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Asgara
12-29-2006 10:46 PM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
Asgara writes:

Does he or does he not already have your life scripted out before he creates you? If he doesn't then he doesn't know what will happen.

The script, even if not yet written, is final. Ultimately everything will be as it is. From our perspective on the journey, we are making decisions which impact the final script (and they do) Perhaps what frustrates many is the idea that we can never really freely choose anything that altars what must be...so in that sense we don't have freedom to circumvent God.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Asgara, posted 12-29-2006 10:46 PM Asgara has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11916
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 51 of 711 (372927)
12-30-2006 3:25 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Rob
12-30-2006 12:38 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
scottness writes:

If you want the solution to this problem, read message 47.

Scottness, might I remind you that what we are writing are our opinions and our beliefs...not necessarily solutions which implies a bit of arrogance, don't you think?

Perhaps a good rule of thumb is to say that nobody on this board has any solutions for anyone else. We are here to debate in good form and attempt to persuade others by voicing our beliefs and opinions.


Phat® says: We Become The Decisions That We Make.
* * * * * * * * * *
"I have a fundamental belief in the Bible as the Word of God, written by men who were inspired. I study the Bible daily."

"Atheism is so senseless. When I look at the solar system. I see the earth at the right distance from the sun to receive the proper amounts of heat and light. This did not happen by chance."- --Sir Isaac Newton


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Rob, posted 12-30-2006 12:38 AM Rob has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Rob, posted 12-30-2006 11:09 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 56 by Rob, posted 12-30-2006 11:27 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 3971 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 52 of 711 (372974)
12-30-2006 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Asgara
12-30-2006 12:33 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
Asgara writes:

If you are created with the eventual outcome known by your creator then how can you have free will. You will do what you are scripted to do, what is already known you will do.

That 'eventual outcome known by your Creator' is a paraphrase of omniscience, or theological determinism.
The answer is not getting any more or less complex in lieu of any paraphrasing; it is still a matter of our having free-will 'in time' and an omniscient God outside of time.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Asgara, posted 12-30-2006 12:33 AM Asgara has not yet responded

    
anastasia
Member (Idle past 3971 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 53 of 711 (372977)
12-30-2006 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Asgara
12-30-2006 1:00 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
Asgara writes:

First off you assume that people haven't read Lewis. Second, it is "merely" an apologetic. Something pulled out of a hat in an attempt to explain a conundrum.

This is as I said before only one 'solution'. There is also nondeterminism in which there is no omniscient being or non-compatibilism in which we have no free will because of an omniscient being. There are many variations, some of which have nothing to do with God, but with the laws of nature.

As per the OP, which assumes an omniscient being, and asks HOW we can have free will, this is a 'solution' which of course did not originate with Lewis, although he explains it well.

ABE; I am calling this 'a' solution, but as far as I know there is no other theological concept...of course non-testable and all that so not a true 'solution'...which better explains the conundrum.

Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Asgara, posted 12-30-2006 1:00 AM Asgara has not yet responded

    
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3867 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 54 of 711 (372978)
12-30-2006 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Phat
12-30-2006 3:25 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
Perhaps a good rule of thumb is to say that nobody on this board has any solutions for anyone else.

Ok Phat, but just remember that rules are themselves solutions. I don't pretend to have solutions, that would be arrogant indeed. God has solutions.

Edited by scottness, : badly missing 'n't'


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 12-30-2006 3:25 AM Phat has not yet responded

    
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3867 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 55 of 711 (372982)
12-30-2006 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Asgara
12-30-2006 1:00 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
First off you assume that people haven't read Lewis. Second, it is "merely" an apologetic. Something pulled out of a hat in an attempt to explain a conundrum.

Yes, I did assume that none of you had read Lewis, because no-one was giving the larger context of an eternal scope. If you had read it, you should not have acted as though the problem had to be answered within the narrow parameters of time.

As for pulling somethig out of a hat... that's what thinking is! But is the attire black or white?

Take it easy Asgara, these are tough things to handle, but logic will crush you if you try to stay too ridgid. We must be pliable so we can flow with it.

Nice to think of, but no basis except in your mind. If you can make things up to explain what you can't find an explanation for then just say so.

I can if it is logical, because I do not make up logic... it made me up! Only illogical statemnts are contrived.

We simply have to use the logical mind God gave us, if we are to come to any rational understanding. of course we cannot claim it as our own. We do not own reality.

Asgara, I like how you used your mind to make that up, so that you could challenge the validity of thinking altogether. That is illogical.

Why would you use your gift of choice to think that thinking is invalid as a means of understanding the issues?

'...cool intellect must prevail not only against cool intellect on the other side, but against the muddy heathen mysticisms that deny intellect altogether.' Lewis-

Edited by scottness, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Asgara, posted 12-30-2006 1:00 AM Asgara has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Archer Opteryx, posted 12-30-2006 4:44 PM Rob has responded

    
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3867 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 56 of 711 (372983)
12-30-2006 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Phat
12-30-2006 3:25 AM


Re: Puppets or Prodegies?
I made an edit to reply 54 ...oops!

Edited by scottness, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 12-30-2006 3:25 AM Phat has not yet responded

    
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 1615 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 57 of 711 (373058)
12-30-2006 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Rob
12-30-2006 11:25 AM


points of view

'...cool intellect must prevail not only against cool intellect on the other side, but against the muddy heathen mysticisms that deny intellect altogether.'

Lewis-

quote:

Beware of the man of one book.

- St. Thomas Aquinas



Archer

All species are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Rob, posted 12-30-2006 11:25 AM Rob has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Rob, posted 12-30-2006 5:04 PM Archer Opteryx has not yet responded

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3867 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 58 of 711 (373065)
12-30-2006 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Archer Opteryx
12-30-2006 4:44 PM


Re: points of view
Archer writes:
Beware of the man of one book.
- St. Thomas Aquinas

Archer, you are a smart one! ;)

Abuse does not rule out use.
- St. Thomas Aquinas

:D


If we will not learn to eat the only food that the universe grows — the only food that any possible universe ever can grow — then we must starve eternally. (Lewis- The Problem of Pain)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Archer Opteryx, posted 12-30-2006 4:44 PM Archer Opteryx has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11916
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 59 of 711 (762741)
07-15-2015 5:27 AM


Free Will Remix
I said:
quote:
Perhaps what frustrates many is the idea that we can never really freely choose anything that altars what must be...so in that sense we don't have freedom to circumvent God.
Comments?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Tangle, posted 07-15-2015 6:01 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 61 by ringo, posted 07-15-2015 3:17 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6519
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 60 of 711 (762742)
07-15-2015 6:01 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Phat
07-15-2015 5:27 AM


Re: Free Will Remix
Phat writes:

Comments?

Yes. If your opening premise is absurd, more absurdities will follow.

btw, what was the answer to how many angels on that pinhead?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Phat, posted 07-15-2015 5:27 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Prev123
4
56
...
48NextFF
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019