Holistic Doctors, and medicine

That is not only completely untrue, but, incidentally, a reflection of what we have under our current system.If you have a specific type of insurance, say, CIGNA, you can ONLY go to doctors who accept CIGNA insurance. If you have an HMO you can ONLY go to doctors on an approved list. Case in point, my mother has an HMO. When I was about 12 or 13 her employer switched to her current HMO and we HAD to switch doctors because her primary care physician and our pediatrician were not on the HMO list.This happens all the time, rat.Under a government system ALL doctors and hospitals would be on the list. That sorry excuse just doesn't fly.Just as an example read thisThe doctors in France decide issues pertaining to a patient's health - not the gov't and not insurance companies, patient choice is unlimited, you can opt into a private insurance plan if you wish, "non-medical" personnel is virtually non-existant because of the ease of billing (that cuts a tremendous amount of cost and hassle) and *get this* medical school is FREE so no worries about doctors not making enough income to pay back 7+ years of schooling.The list goes on and on. Go ahead and find out for yourself instead of blindly parroting the wingnut lines.For more information: Embassy of France siteWe have plenty of models besides the French one, but their system far surpasses ours and most of the other ones which are still mostly better than ours. It's not necessarily perfect, but we can tweak it to make it better.

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"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London

The pure definition of homeopathic medicines seems to be that the alleged active ingredient is diluted to the extreme that there is no active ingredient left. I have no doubt such have equal value to your tap water.That said, there seems to also be alleged medicines that are not such as that "pure" definition. I guess they would be solutions (as in chemistry term) of some ingredient(s) in low but still very real concentrations. Despite not falling within the "pure" definition, these products still get filed under homeopathy.I have a friend who has a PhD in some variety of fish biology - A genuinely smart and intelligent guy. As I understand it, he acquired a so called homeopathic allergy remedy for his dog, and as I understand it, thought it was a useful product.Bottom line: I think that there are unconventional alternative medicines that are filed under homeopathy, that might have valid use.I have another (Minnesota) friend who has had long term health problems, including serious digestive problems and also general lack of energy and accompanying depression. He has consulted with a number of local doctors many times over quite a few years. None did much if anything for him.Then, though family connections, he hooked up with a rather unconventional doctor (real M.D.) in California that had some alternative ideas. There, tests were interpreted that my friend had human growth hormone and testosterone deficiencies. He got treatment with both, and a few days later he felt wonderful, for about two days. Since then, maintenance HGH and testosterone injections have had much less clear benefit. The local doctors came around to support the HGH treatment, but not the testosterone treatment.While much is to be said for conventional medicine, if it just doesn't work maybe you need to try something else.Moose

When I was refering to "no choice of doctor", I was refering to Hillary's first attempt at health care reform. Her plans incuded turning the entire US into an HMO.I fully understand how health insurance companies work, being that I have 5 kids, and both me and my wife had our choice of coverage.With my current insurance, GHI, I can go to any doctor, and even if they don't accept it, which most do, I can get reimbursed for a percentage.While this whole idea about letting the government control our health care sounds great (because I wish to see everyone have coverage) I wonder just how efficiently they would run it, and just what would it cost us in our already too high tax dollars. Are the middle class going to be supporting the country with this?I am already taxed up the ass. And being that we have a government that likes to spend $800 for toilet seats, I am not confident that it is a good idea.

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While this whole idea about letting the government control our health care sounds great (because I wish to see everyone have coverage) I wonder just how efficiently they would run it, and just what would it cost us in our already too high tax dollars. Are the middle class going to be supporting the country with this?

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Rat, this is not some bizzaro idea that nobody has ever tried, or some people tried and it hasn't worked.Most other industrialized countries, including Canada and most of Europe have socialized medicine and have for decades.More importantly, those countries have much healthier people and spend far less than we do for healthcare.

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I am already taxed up the ass. And being that we have a government that likes to spend $800 for toilet seats, I am not confident that it is a good idea.

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If your company didn't have to pay for your insurance, then they could pay you more in dollars or more vacation time or whatever.If everybody is covered, insurance companies wouldn't be hiking up your employer's rates to pay for the uninsured, which is what they do now.Tell me, do you think that the police force and the military should be privatized instead of remaining socialized?Why don't you educate yourself on what socialized medicine actually is and stop parroting back more right-wing soundbites?

Nope, I was a civil service servant for 11 years, and witnessed first hand at the failure of privatization. I haven't parroted anything nator, as I indicated in my first reply to you, I do not know what it is. I only remember that Hillary's ideas were unacceptable, and got run out extremely fast. I am correct in what I remember.Then also like I said, what you are telling me sounds good, because I would like to see everyone have health care coverage. We live in an era where it is available, why not take strides to make it available to everyone.I already work towards getting basic health care for orphans throughout the world, why wouldn't I want it here in the US?

All I can say, rat, is that each and every objection you have raised in this thread are exactly the (spurious) fearmongering soundbites the conservatives use every time someone starts talking about socialized healthcare.Also, if you agree that a socialized military and socialized police force can work, why are you so down on socialized healthcare, especially when you have admitted that you don't know anything about it?Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Take a guess.

There must be an existing "Socialized Medicine" topic somewhere. Someone who has debated that topic, please consult your personal topic index to find it and give it a bump.If such a topic does not exist, someone start one in the "Coffee House".Persist on that subthread in this topic at a risk of a suspension.Adminnemooseus

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RR, listen up. I am now 72. When I was young I had all kinds of severe sinus problems. When I was a boy back in the 1940s all the way from age 9 my Dad had me in his auto repair shop washing greasy parts in gasoline, grinding, buffing and riveting the asbestos brake shoes on the bands, breathing exaust et al. Not only that but my parents had no knowledge of good diet regime. We ate the ice cream, white flower products, sugar donuts, nitrite laced lunch meats, spam, et al, et al. Anyhow it did a job on my youth years when my body was developing. I was not a healthy young person. While in the Air Force an old fellow in the church I attended who was healthy and fit got me interested in alternatives. Back then (1950s) the wholistic science was like a Model T Ford compared to today's Alexis so far as technology and advancement.My health began to slowly improve in spite of the tech just by improving diet but even with diet, the science has advanced wholistically to the point that having knowledge of good diet regime, our program gets continually more refined.Due to my bad start health wise in life I likely would be dead or infirmed decades ago if it weren't for the alternatives including herbs minerals, vitamins, lots of pure water, diet, exercise including gardening, et al.YOU CAN BEAT YOUR PROBLEMS. Likely you didn't get as bad an early start healthwise in life as me and likely your system is more able to be repaired by a good health regime.Here's some suggestions for beginning (I say "beginning) NOW to improve. Your God designed body has an amazing ability to repair, given the right stuff to make it happen:I see you're from NY state. If you're down state I understand there's a good alternative in Manhattan (Sinus Center of Manhattan) which uses a product called Sinol which you can take without side effects. We have it on hand as I still get some hay fever in the grass season. You can read about Sinol here: #1 Press Release Distribution Platform | PR Distribution.2. Avoid the following foods:
a. ALL milk and cheese products except possibly an organic plain white yougart.
b. Grain products in general, especially refined ones except perhaps some millet and brown rice.
c. Avoid ALL junk food including sweets. Sugar inflames pain and causes conjestion.
d. No clorinated or chemical treated water.
e. Read labels. No nitrite laced products like cold cuts, hot dogs, many beers, wine, et al.
f. No food after 6 PM
g. No coffee and other caffine products like pop et al. (read labels)
h. No deep fried or other fried food.
i. Nothing with hydrogenated oils.3. Don't stay up too late. Get your sleep.
& on't eat after 6 PM.4. Don't smoke. VERY BAD.5. Don't eat between meals and EAT LIGHT.6. Some things to consume:
a. Herbal teas such as pepermint, green tea, catnip, camomile, et al.
b. Brown rice, millet
c. organic WHITE UNSWEETENED yogart available at most larger food stores
d. lots of steamed or raw vegies & some fruits, all preferably organic and don't mix fruit's and vegies at same meal as a general rule.
e. Avacados are good
d. Fresh fish and sardines preferably packed in water.
e. COD LIVER OIL EXCELLENT, preferably a good product from the Northern seas having less mercury. We get this and other products from GARDEN OF LIFE. You can google it. They are a very reliable company for suppliments.I suggest you get some Sinol NOW and begin flushing out those nasal and head cavities. No perscription needed.I'm not telling you what to do, my friend. I'm just a beggar telling another begger where I found bread. Myself, I would wean off drugs and on to the alternatives. Stop enriching the fat cat pharms & meds and start getting better like I did. We raised two boys without docs. There's a place for them though and some of their methods are good. The real good docs are the integrated ones, real MDs, more and more of which are integrating into the alternatives. Dr Whitaker who has the largest alternative clinic in the US in CA is a good example.Don't look for or expect the proverbial silver bullet. Think wholistic and treat the body, not the symptom as most conventional docs are doing.Get on google and google up alternative sinus & headache stuff. There's a lot of it out there, but NOT ALL OF IT'S GOOD. You have to do your homework. It's a big science and lots to learn. Wifie & I are still learning and enjoying health with most of our original teeth at 70+ whereas we both started out unhealthy. Not only that, but the alternatives are good for those romantic highs we aged married heterosexuals still enjoy. Gotta run. God bless. Go with God and foods as he made them, keeping close to the natural state.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.

If regimen I suggested is too tough, begin somewhere. Any one of the things should do some good but the more the better if you want relief. I know suffering, misery & pain. I've been there and the effort is worth it. Not only that but your body's cravings change to enjoy the good foods as you learn tasty ways to use them.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.

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YOU CAN BEAT YOUR PROBLEMS.

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Buzsaw, how the hell can you possibly know that?You don't even know what's wrong with him, exactly, and if diet and exercise has any effect whatsoever on the problem.I mean, diet and exercise can't prevent or cure or have much, if any, effect upon a lot of medical problems.And, once someone has a problem, even if diet and exercise might have prevented it, changing habits after the problem developed is sometimes too little, too late.

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Stop enriching the fat cat pharms & meds and start getting better like I did.

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Oh, the irony.From your own link about Sinol, emphasis added by me: Your link isn't about how effective the product is, buz. It's all about the company's marketing strategy and how bright the future is for the sales. The link is a press release from the advertizing agency that handles the marketing campaign of Sinol, and it is a large account, selling in 15,000 mass market stores.If you object to "enriching fat-cat" big-business, then you probably shouldn't buy Sinol, either.Edited by nator, : No reason given.

I do know what's wrong with him, madear. He's sick. His body is sick and needs wholistically healed. He needs what will help his whole imune system, rid his body of the congestion and give it the stuff it needs to fix itself.How do I know it works? Because we raised two boys to be healthy adults by using the wholistic alternative regimes all their life and most of our own, all without the docs and zero pharmaceuticals. I also know it works because I have observed others who use it including a friend who had cripling arthritis eat her way into walking up a flight of stairs with no pain. et al, et al, et al.I know it works because I've checked out the science on it and remember how important almighty science is here? Dr Whitaker of the wellness clenic and Debora Ray who we listen to about 5 hours a week both cite clinical studies which verify their claims. .......Says the closed minded skeptic who's not been there and who knows not what she's talking about. I use it and it works with no bad side effects. Have you?

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.

I have the antidote to your anecdote. I haven't had a prescription since 1968. I hardly know what a doctor looks like. I once quit a job leaving 2000 hours of sick leave behind.And I comply with only two things on your list: I don't smoke and I love sardines.

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“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
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1. I don't always comply with what I've suggested for a suffering sick one in need of relief. My list is advice for RR to get what the $$$ fat & rich cats failed to do with their money driven agenda which is embedded in especially the USA. It's very often the terminal and desperate that finally try the alternatives and if they get sound advice it most always provides some benefit, sometimes being remarkable.2. If you're still young, now's the time to get apprised on the real nutritional science of your body, the most precious asset you have outside of your eternal soul. You'll be glad you did when you get my age.3. The fact that you don't resort to the pharms for common ailments is likely one of the main reasons you are relatively healthy.4. Sardines are great nutritionally and being small and containing less mercury than larger fish are safer. I do up all kinds of tasty nutritional ways of combining them into salads, spreads and such. Not only that but they're a wonderful cheap way of storing up survival food in case of catastrophy et al. They're ready packed in dinner size containers. I get mine at a discount food chain for 59c. They are packed in soybean oil which is'nt likely nutritionally as good as water but I suggested water packed ones for RR's conjestive ailment.I hope RR is well enough to log in and read and/or respond to what he thinks about all this. He said something about wishing at times he were dead. Hopefully that was off the cuff, considering all the hopeless responses he got from the $$$pharmaceutical$$$, alternative bashing apologists before reading some more hopful and positive info.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.

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I do know what's wrong with him, madear. He's sick. His body is sick and needs wholistically healed. He needs what will help his whole imune system, rid his body of the congestion and give it the stuff it needs to fix itself.

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Not all medical problems can be fixed by the body "healing itself", buz.Many can't, in fact.Before western medicine, people often died at quite young ages because they would die of things like infections from cuts or influenza or complications from pregnancy and childbirth or scarlet fever or polio or the mumps or pneumonia.How does a body "heal itself" from cystic fibrosis, or lupus, or epilepsy, or Huntington's disease, or hemophelia, Tay-Sachs disease? Without modern medicine, people with these diseases would just suffer and die.

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......Says the closed minded skeptic who's not been there and who knows not what she's talking about.

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Personal experience is meaningless, buz, and I can read.I can read reality-based information, rather rely on "buz's little insular fantasy-world".That reality-based information is telling me that sometimes, bodies get jacked up so badly that the damage just can't be repaired. At least, not fully.Hell, I can look at both of my parents for examples of that.

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I use it and it works with no bad side effects. Have you?

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You've missed or avoided the point entirely, buz. I have no idea if Sinol works or not, and it doesn't matter at all to the point I made.You constantly disparage modern medicine and drug companies as being "big-business fat cats", and advise people to stop giving them their money.As if the fact that the companies are large is reason enough to not trust them.Well, clearly the company that sells Sinol is a big-time player, since they hired a sophisticated marketing firm to help them sell their product most effectively in 15,000 mass-market retailers.Your cited press release makes it clear that they believe that the marketing strategy will result in great sales and a lot of profits for the company.Why are you giving money to Sinol's "fat cat", big business profiteers who, with their slick marketing, seem to only be interested in making money?You can't have it both ways, buz. You can't criticize one big drug company for being interested in making money and give a pass to another big drug company that is interesated in making money just because you like what one of them makes and not the other.Or, perhaps you just conveniently forget that the people who make Sinol are in business in order to make as much profit as possible?

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They are packed in soybean oil which is'nt likely nutritionally as good as water but I suggested water packed ones for RR's conjestive ailment.

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Of course, sardines are very nutritious but they are also very high in sodium and people with hypertension or kidney problems shouldn't consume too many.Also, olive oil is one of the best oils to get any tinned fish packed in, not only for flavor but for all the other things olive oil is good for, like bad cholesterol-reduction and anti-inflamatory properties.