Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,902 Year: 4,159/9,624 Month: 1,030/974 Week: 357/286 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Holistic Doctors, and medicine
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 226 of 304 (423817)
09-24-2007 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by nator
09-24-2007 11:29 AM


Thank you, nator
I didn't even think to look up the man's license!
Excellent work.
POTM time!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by nator, posted 09-24-2007 11:29 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by nator, posted 09-24-2007 1:47 PM molbiogirl has not replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 230 of 304 (423849)
09-24-2007 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by purpledawn
09-24-2007 3:30 PM


BigPharma and Vitamins
PD writes:
Are you saying that we can patent that which occurs in nature?
Why, of course.
We can even patent life forms!
A patent on a meningitis bacteria.
A patent on a coal purifying bacteria.
PD writes:
Synthetic versions, however, can be patented.
Who holds the patent on natural retinol?
wiki writes:
Retinol (afaxin), the animal form of vitamin A, is a fat-soluble vitamin.
I have a tube of Retinol right now!
Here's one patent holder.
PD writes:
Please refer us to a specific paper that shows that the pharmaceutical industry tested a natural vitamin or herb extensively so that they could market that natural product, as opposed to creating a synthetic version or portion that could be patented.
You mean besides Retinol?
A quick pubmed search gets this:
Vitamin C improves endothelial dysfunction of epicardial coronary arteries in hypertensive patients, Circulation 1999 Mar 9;99(9):1273-4.
And here's the patent. Lookee! It's Pauling!
Had I more time to do research, I bet I could find both the cites and the patents for each vitamin.
btw.
These vitamins are synthetic only in that they are manufactured. Chemically, structurally, and functionally they are identical to the natural versions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by purpledawn, posted 09-24-2007 3:30 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by purpledawn, posted 09-24-2007 5:28 PM molbiogirl has replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 234 of 304 (423880)
09-24-2007 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by purpledawn
09-24-2007 5:28 PM


"Natural" v. "Synthetic" Vitamins
...as opposed to creating a synthetic version or portion that could be patented.
I think we have to answer the "synthetic" question to your satisfaction before we can move on to who is, or is not, a member of BigPharma.
Water is H20. One can make water (by passing electricity thru a hydrogen and oxygen mixture) or one can collect it from a natural source. Water is structurally, functionally, and chemically the same in both instances.
This is chemistry 101.
Do you really need me to explain chemistry to you?
As Mod pointed out, there's only one structure that is vitamin A.
Re: patents.
Go to the US Patent Office website. Type "bacteria" in its search engine.
You will find that not only have bacteria been patented, but entire cultivars (soybeans, for example) have been patented.
Here's the link.
patft » Page 1 of 1
The coal purifying bacteria strains were developed, not discovered in nature.
We "develop" prokaryotes and eukaryotes all the time.
Are you suggesting that a pitbull is "synthetic" somehow because it was "developed" by humans?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by purpledawn, posted 09-24-2007 5:28 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by purpledawn, posted 09-24-2007 7:30 PM molbiogirl has replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 239 of 304 (423945)
09-24-2007 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by purpledawn
09-24-2007 7:30 PM


Re: "Natural" v. "Synthetic" Vitamins & Patents
Patent 1:
Soybean
Patent 2:
Bacteria
PD writes:
Supposedly we can't patent what is found naturally in nature because we didn't invent it.
Not according to the Supreme Court.
wiki writes:
The bacteria drew international attention when he applied for a patent -- the first-ever patent for living organism. He was initially denied the patent by the Patent Office because it was thought that the patent code precluded patents on living organisms. The United States Court of Customs and Patent Appeals overturned the decision in Chakrabarty's favor, writing:
“ ...the fact that micro-organisms are alive is without legal significance for purposes of patent law. ”
Sidney A. Diamond, Commissioner of Patents and Trademarks, then appealed to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court case was argued on March 17, 1980 and decided on June 16, 1980. This patent was granted by the U.S. Supreme Court (Diamond v. Chakrabarty), in a 5-4 decision, when it determined that
“ A live, human-made micro-organism is patentable subject matter under [Title 35 U.S.C.] 101. Respondent's micro-organism constitutes a "manufacture" or "composition of matter" within that statute. ”
Prof. Chakrabarty’s landmark research has since paved the way for many patents on genetically modified micro-organisms and other life forms, and catapulted him into the international spotlight. The "oil-eating bacteria" has been used to clean up many toxic oil spills, including the one caused by the Exxon Valdez disaster.
And then there's this:
http://www.i-sis.org.uk/crpohlf.php
Canada’s ruling on 5 December 2002 makes her the only industrialized country to prohibit patents on higher life forms...Canada allows single-celled organisms, such as yeasts and bacteria, and GM crops to be patented. It also allows patents for modified human genes and cell lines. The Supreme Court, Canada’s highest court, however conceded that ownership of more complicated life forms is a radically different concept, thus ending the legal battles over the oncomouse.
No mice, just prokaryotes and plants.
PD writes:
Does the synthetic have the same side effects as the natural, is it absorbed into the body the same as the natural?
Yes.
Structurally = atoms in the molecule are arranged in the same shape
Functionally = molecule acts the same in biological processes
Chemically = molecule acts the same in chemical reactions
www.doctoryourself.com writes:
Most vitamin products, even those sold in health food stores or by distributors, contain synthetic vitamin powders...Vitamins can legally be called “Natural” even if made in a laboratory.
Pure Appl.Chem., Vol.74, No.10, pp.1957-1985, 2002.
NATURAL AND SYNTHETIC SUBSTANCES RELATED TO HUMAN HEALTH
Chemical substances can be characterized in many ways, one of which is whether they occur in nature or not. Human health is impacted by a wide variety of chemical substances, including those essential to human life, such as vitamins and nutrients, medicines, and toxic materials. Understandably, there is a vital interest in this subject on the part of the general public. A popular view holds that natural substances are innately superior to man-made or synthetic substances with respect to their effects, good or bad, on human health. This can extend to so-called nature-identical materials that are natural substances produced synthetically in an identical molecular form. The purpose of this article is to explore the subject by reviewing, in an illustrative manner, drug substances, herbal medicinal preparations, vitamins and nutrients, and toxic substances, with a view to providing an informed, rational perspective.
Natural substances that are also available in an identical molecular form by synthesis, represent another distinct category. A typical example is vitamin C, which is produced commercially by synthesis, and the synthetic substance is referred to as a nature-identical vitamin.
The chemical structures of these compounds are identical with the corresponding natural substances (nature-identical) or derivatives that are hydrolyzed to nature-identical compounds in the body.
In conclusion, from the examples presented in this article, it is clear that natural and synthetic substances have the same properties with regard to efficacy and safety, in terms of their impact on human health. The actions of individual substances are determined by their molecular structures and dose, not whether they are of natural or synthetic origin.
If the molecular structure is the same (as it is with vitamin C, vitamin A, vitamin E, etc.), it is the same substance.
This is a technical report that is 30 pages long. It's a free .pdf if you are interested.
From that same report:
Herbal medicine preparations (HMPs), as they are generally known in most countries, are classified as botanical dietary supplements (BDSs) in the United States, where they are not subject to the same safety and efficacy regulations that apply to prescription and over-the-counter drugs. The United States is presently experiencing an unprecedented boom in their use. Between 1990 and 1997, purchases by the general population increased by 380% [40]. In 1998, the total market was worth USD 3.87 billion, and the herb with the highest annual percentage increase (2801%) was St. John’s wort [41].
Big AlternaPharma!
Edited by molbiogirl, : sp
Edited by molbiogirl, : html added

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by purpledawn, posted 09-24-2007 7:30 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by purpledawn, posted 09-25-2007 7:08 AM molbiogirl has replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 247 of 304 (424029)
09-25-2007 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by purpledawn
09-25-2007 7:08 AM


Re: "Natural" v. "Synthetic" Vitamins & Patents
Do you understand the difference yet?
You still don't understand, PD.
There is no difference between "synthetic" vitamin C and the vitamin C in an orange. No difference. At all. Period.
Your bare assertion to the contrary makes no sense.
The paper that you read makes the point quite clearly.
They are THE SAME.
btw.
The bioavailability of manmade vitamins is THE SAME as those that are not manmade. That is also quite clear in the paper.
If you are going to continue to insist that manmade vitamins are somehow different from natural vitamins, you need to back up your claim.
The article concerning the mice deals with modified mice.
A pitbull is a modified dog.
Is it manmade?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by purpledawn, posted 09-25-2007 7:08 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by purpledawn, posted 09-25-2007 2:36 PM molbiogirl has replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 250 of 304 (424033)
09-25-2007 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by Kitsune
09-25-2007 5:14 AM


Dr. Barrett's Credibility
His expertise is questionable.
Please provide your source. Heresay is notoriously unreliable. As we can see from your previous posts (re: Dr. Barrett's license).
I assume this is a generalisation.
Vaccinations alone have saved millions. C'mon, Lindalou.
People often cite studies based only on titles or abstracts.
I am a PhD candidate in Biochemistry. I assure you. I read papers. And I make a point of reading everything I post.
I suggest you try reading a few. The links you have provided so far are to marketing sites.
It depends on what substance you are looking at.
No. It doesn't. OTC alternaremedies are not regulated and thus statistics for death/injury are not kept.
Your link re: vitamins doesn't pan out either.
From the AAPCC site:
Additional exposures may go unreported to PCCs, and data referenced from the AAPCC should not be construed to represent the complete incidence of national exposures to any substance(s).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Kitsune, posted 09-25-2007 5:14 AM Kitsune has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by Kitsune, posted 09-25-2007 10:50 AM molbiogirl has not replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 255 of 304 (424121)
09-25-2007 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by purpledawn
09-25-2007 2:36 PM


Re: "Natural" v. "Synthetic" Vitamins & Patents
It showed that natural and synthetic Vitamin E have differences in how they behave.
Vitamin E is produced by the ton and, when it is industrially produced this way, it is structurally different from natural vitamin E. However, it is possible to produce manmade vitamin E that is structurally the same as naturally occurring vitamin E (and that is the kind that top dollar supplements have). The less bioactive form (you pee it out faster so it doesn't have a chance to bind to fats, etc.) is just cheaper (and easier) to produce.
Her point was that the pharmaceutical industry is not going to spend money to extensively test natural vitamins because they can't patent natural vitamins. You disagreed.
Of course I disagreed.
Because she didn't say NATURAL vitamin.
She said vitamin.
And BigPharma makes BigBucks off vitamins (and have tested them extensively).
How do you think we found out that industrially produced vitamin E is of a different biopotency?
BigPharma and their evil twin, IUPAC, that's how.
You made the distinction between vitamin C "in nature" and manmade vitamin C. And I repeat. Because there is no structural difference, the patents are on "something found in nature".
Let's put it this way.
I hand you 2 electronmicroscopic images.
Both are of vitamin C.
I ask you to pick which came from an orange and which came from a vat at my chem lab.
You won't be able to tell.
It is analogous to manmade water and "natural" water.
They are structurally, chemically, and functionally the same.
Do you distinguish between water that is manmade and water that is "natural"?
I'm not really sure what the pit bull has to do with our discussion concerning patenting natural vitamins.
Because the U.S. grants patents on animals.
wiki writes:
In 1988, the United States Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) granted U.S. Patent 4,736,866 to Harvard College claiming “a transgenic non-human mammal whose germ cells and somatic cells contain a re-combinant activated oncogene sequence introduced into said mammal . ” The claim explicitly excluded humans, apparently reflecting moral and legal concerns about patents on human beings, and about modification of the human genome. Remarkably, there were no US courts called to decide on the validity of this patent. Two separate patents were issued to Harvard College covering methods for providing a cell culture from a transgenic non-human animal (U.S. 5,087,571) and testing methods using transgenic mice expressing an oncogene (U.S. 5,925,803). U.S. 5,925,803 expires in July 2016.
You can repeat ad nauseum that manmade vitamin C is not "natural" all you like. It doesn't change the fact that:
Both the manmade and "natural" versions are structurally, chemically, and functionally the same.
With an oncomouse you have an argument. Not with vitamin C.
And BigPharma has tested tons of vitamins and other "biologicals".
From the same IUPAC report.
Antibiotics are, by definition, natural products or derivatives of natural products. Since the discovery of penicillin, a large number of antibiotics have been isolated from scores of microorganisms [2], and several new antibiotics make it to the clinic each year.
Penicillin is manufactured industrially, too. Do you complain when your penicillin isn't secreted by a fungi?
No.
Because it is structurally, chemically, and functionally the same as that which is fungically produced.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by purpledawn, posted 09-25-2007 2:36 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by purpledawn, posted 09-25-2007 7:06 PM molbiogirl has replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 257 of 304 (424138)
09-25-2007 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by purpledawn
09-25-2007 7:06 PM


Re: "Natural" v. "Synthetic" Vitamins & Patents
I'm afraid you've gotten the wrong info, PD.
Science 30 May 2003: Vol. 300. no. 5624, pp. 1375 - 1376
Natural Substances and Patentable Inventions
The discoverer of a naturally occurring phenomenon--such as an element, chemical, or mineral--cannot patent the phenomenon (1). This long-standing principle of patent law, which reflects the "invention" prerequisite for patent protection, has been upheld consistently by the U.S. Supreme Court. Most recently, in Diamond v. Chakrabarty, the court noted that, although a genetically modified organism could be patentable under some circumstances, "a new mineral discovered in the earth or a new plant found in the wild is not patentable subject matter" because it is not "a product of human ingenuity"(2).
Yet, subtly and without fanfare, the prohibition on patenting products of nature has fallen into legal desuetude. The Patent and Trademark Office and federal courts now routinely hold discovered natural substances patentable if they are "isolated and purified" or otherwise insubstantially modified (3). Naturally occurring DNA and protein biomolecules have, consequently, become the subject of thousands of patent applications (4). Although these chemicals are the most common subjects of such patents, patents have been issued on other purified natural substances, including metals (5), extractions and secretions from microorganisms (6), vitamins (7), and viruses (8). Still other natural substances are now equally susceptible to patenting after isolation and purification, or other minor modification, such as conversion from an ester to a salt or the addition of small amounts of impurities (9).
Learn somethin'?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by purpledawn, posted 09-25-2007 7:06 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by purpledawn, posted 09-26-2007 6:57 AM molbiogirl has replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 262 of 304 (424168)
09-25-2007 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by Buzsaw
09-25-2007 11:05 PM


The Woo MD ...
Three words, buz.
Dr. Linus. Pauling.
A Nobel Prize winner. A great man.
And a complete loon when it comes to vitamin C.
A Harvard degree (or a Nobel Prize) does not make every word from your mouth a pearl.
Dr. Breggin has a total of 5 papers in pubmed.
Breggin PR.
Court filing makes public my previously suppressed analysis of Paxil's effects. Ethical Hum Psychol Psychiatry. 2006 Spring;8(1):77-84.
Breggin PR.
Psychosurgery for political purposes. Duquesne Law Rev. 1975 Summer;13(4):841-62.
Lundy PJ, Breggin PR.
Psychiatric oppression of prisoners. Psychiatr Opin. 1974 Jun;11(3):30-7.
Breggin P, et al.
Comment on "Quizzing the expert: clinical criteria for psychosurgery"
Hosp Physician. 1973 Mar;9(3):79+.
Breggin PR.
The second wave.
Ment Hyg. 1973 Mar;57(1):10-3.
That's an interesting list, don't you think?
1973, 1974, 1975 ... nothing ... nothing ... HIS OWN JOURNAL!
Huh.
Wonder how that happened.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Buzsaw, posted 09-25-2007 11:05 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by Kitsune, posted 09-26-2007 3:14 AM molbiogirl has not replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 288 of 304 (424274)
09-26-2007 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by Kitsune
09-26-2007 9:31 AM


Dr. Pauling
He won a Nobel Prize for his work on vitamin C.
Dr. Pauling won the 1954 Nobel for Chemistry.
...for his research into the nature of the chemical bond and its application to the elucidation of the structure of complex substances.
He then won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1962.
ABE
Oops! Jumped the gun. Sorry Asgara.
Edited by molbiogirl, : sp
Edited by molbiogirl, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Kitsune, posted 09-26-2007 9:31 AM Kitsune has not replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 289 of 304 (424278)
09-26-2007 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by Kitsune
09-26-2007 9:52 AM


Dr. Pauling
Linus Pauling's mother suffered chronic mental illness for years. It was only upon her death that her physicians realised that she had been suffering from pernicious anaemia. If anyone had thought to check her blood levels of B12 and given her an injection, it would have saved her. This was one possible motivator for Pauling's subsequent interest in vitamins.
Would you be willing to provide the link to this info?
I can't find documentation that Lucy Pauling died of pernicious anemia.
Marie Curie, yes. Lucy, no.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by Kitsune, posted 09-26-2007 9:52 AM Kitsune has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by Modulous, posted 09-26-2007 1:13 PM molbiogirl has not replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 290 of 304 (424283)
09-26-2007 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by purpledawn
09-26-2007 6:57 AM


Re: Patents: Purified and Isolated
Yes it is a way around the system, but it still stands that we cannot patent a naturally occurring phenomenon.
How can anyone patent anything without isolating it first?
Your line of reasoning is flawed, to say the least.
The process of isolation doesn't change the nature of the substance.
The fact remains, vitamins have been patented.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by purpledawn, posted 09-26-2007 6:57 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by purpledawn, posted 09-26-2007 7:05 PM molbiogirl has replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 298 of 304 (424382)
09-26-2007 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by purpledawn
09-26-2007 7:05 PM


Break out the dictionaries
pu·ri·fy 1. to make pure; free from anything that debases, pollutes, adulterates, or contaminates: to purify metals.
i·so·late 3. Chemistry, Bacteriology. to obtain (a substance or microorganism) in an uncombined or pure state.
"Isolating" or "purifying" a vitamin is the same thing!
How it something "changed" if it is simply separated from contaminants?
And I can't "show" you "natural" vitamin C when you continue to insist that if I obtain vitamin C from an orange, it's synthetic vitamin C because I've isolated and purified it!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by purpledawn, posted 09-26-2007 7:05 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by purpledawn, posted 09-26-2007 7:51 PM molbiogirl has replied
 Message 302 by Buzsaw, posted 09-26-2007 8:08 PM molbiogirl has not replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 301 of 304 (424396)
09-26-2007 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 300 by purpledawn
09-26-2007 7:51 PM


Seriously, PD.
They say "isolate and purify" not "or".
Isolate and isolate or purify and purify or isolate and purify mean the same thing.
Isolate = remove contaminants
Purify = remove contaminants
You are on thin ice here.
Show me how "isolate" and "purify" are two different things.
Vitamin C, isolated and purifed from an orange, is not synthetic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by purpledawn, posted 09-26-2007 7:51 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 304 by purpledawn, posted 09-26-2007 8:15 PM molbiogirl has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024