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Author Topic:   Biblical Creationism Requires Evolution
TheNaturalist
Member (Idle past 5713 days)
Posts: 86
Joined: 01-18-2008


Message 31 of 121 (453482)
02-02-2008 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by tesla
02-02-2008 8:46 AM


Re: correct. but misled.
its relevant by the topic initially posted, which "seemed" to point absolutely the timetables of dog or man evolution, which by the fox study show that the power of choice can either slow down or speed up evolutions of living things.
it also explains my belief on the relevance of that choice as stated by those who believe in creation as opposed to "chance" existence.
This does not allow, however, for the developement of such difference in some creatures within this period of time. Dogs seemingly couldnt develope a .1% difference within 4000 years, and if they could, then if you look at the future, macro evolution will happen anyway.
The deduction that if biblical creation is true then macro evolution will happen anyway is intended to destroy biblical creationism in some mindframes, but not to destroy your notion, though your notion is false by other evidences.

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 Message 30 by tesla, posted 02-02-2008 8:46 AM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
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tesla
Member (Idle past 1622 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 32 of 121 (453601)
02-03-2008 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by TheNaturalist
02-02-2008 10:39 AM


Re: correct. but misled.
ok, here is what im saying:
if dogs are a lesser form of wolf by way of evolution,
why isn't it possible then, for apes to be a devolution in the "man" family tree?
here is the argument: from studying even recent evolution of modern man, man has apparently been getting taller in its evolution, so the earlier man could quite logically be much smaller. or the traits between the male and female of the genus be more diverse. biblical account of woman coming from the rib of man suggests that woman would be much smaller , if you look at it scientifically , a statement from the bible of course.
here is the data I've collected, but it only forms more questions for me than answers. but I'm not very good at evolution of course.
here is the data that opens the debate inside me:
Discovered by Donald Johanson in 1973 at Hadar in Ethiopia (Johanson and Edey 1981; Johanson and Taieb 1976). Estimated age is about 3.4 million years. This find consisted of portions of both legs, including a complete right knee joint which is almost a miniature of a human knee, but apparently belongs to an adult.
and:
In short, there is a wide range of opinions about the nature of the footprints and whether A. afarensis could have made them. Most creationists usually cite only Tuttle, whose conclusions they find most convenient. The most honest conclusion, for now, is to admit that although no-one can be entirely sure what made the Laetoli footprints, it seems quite likely that they belonged to australopithecines.
and:
Australopithecines stood about 1-1.5 m in height and had relatively small brains typically measuring between 370 and 515 cm3 (cc)--only slightly larger than the brain of a chimpanzee. The australopithecine mode of locomotion has been a point of controversy, usually centered around the shape of australopithecine pelvis and knee bones. Early studies believed the australopithecine pelvis was a clear-cut precursor to Homo with human-like bipedality, while later studies of australopithecine locomotion found it to be different from modern apes, but also very different from humans--a distinct mode of locomotion. The most common consensus is that forms of australopithecines were adapted for both tree-climbing and at least semi-upright, if not fully upright walking, having a mode of locomotion different from all extant primates, including humans and modern apes.
there are tons of different ideas, and huge arguments from creationists and evolutionists, and disagreement within both parties within themselves since no conclusion is yet available.
it would appear to me, that apes are more likely a devolution of man from this data.
earlier skulls of earlier genus that were found are not complete enough for me to draw a conclusion, and i cant relate the fragments as a part of the "man" tree.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by TheNaturalist, posted 02-02-2008 10:39 AM TheNaturalist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Coyote, posted 02-03-2008 1:00 PM tesla has replied
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2135 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 33 of 121 (453609)
02-03-2008 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by tesla
02-03-2008 12:20 PM


Devolution?
quote:
there are tons of different ideas, and huge arguments from creationists and evolutionists, and disagreement within both parties within themselves since no conclusion is yet available.
it would appear to me, that apes are more likely a devolution of man from this data.
A devolution beginning when?
If you argue that this happened after the fall, or after the flood, you are positing the exact same type of evolution that scientists propose and that creationist generally oppose, but you are positing it several hundred times faster and in reverse.
Is this what you really mean?

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Replies to this message:
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TheNaturalist
Member (Idle past 5713 days)
Posts: 86
Joined: 01-18-2008


Message 34 of 121 (453619)
02-03-2008 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by tesla
02-03-2008 12:20 PM


Re: correct. but misled.
ok, here is what im saying:
if dogs are a lesser form of wolf by way of evolution,
why isn't it possible then, for apes to be a devolution in the "man" family tree?
Firstly, it depends on what you consider to be a "lesser" form. It's kind of subjective, so dont use it as evidence.
Secondly, organisms can be "lesser" for a particular environment, but not for another kind of environment; hippos are "lesser" than wooly mammoths in the cold siberian climates, but hippos are "greater" than wooly mammoths in the hot african climates.
Thirdly, about apes being a "de-evolution"(this doesnt make sense) of man, humans clearly existed after their ape-like ancestors, considering genetic mutations (humans have almost all of the mutations apes do, but they also have more mutations, since they came after creatures that were ape-like).
here is the argument: from studying even recent evolution of modern man, man has apparently been getting taller in its evolution, so the earlier man could quite logically be much smaller. or the traits between the male and female of the genus be more diverse. biblical account of woman coming from the rib of man suggests that woman would be much smaller , if you look at it scientifically , a statement from the bible of course.
Frankly I dont know the purpose of putting this here...
Discovered by Donald Johanson in 1973 at Hadar in Ethiopia (Johanson and Edey 1981; Johanson and Taieb 1976). Estimated age is about 3.4 million years. This find consisted of portions of both legs, including a complete right knee joint which is almost a miniature of a human knee, but apparently belongs to an adult.
and:
In short, there is a wide range of opinions about the nature of the footprints and whether A. afarensis could have made them. Most creationists usually cite only Tuttle, whose conclusions they find most convenient. The most honest conclusion, for now, is to admit that although no-one can be entirely sure what made the Laetoli footprints, it seems quite likely that they belonged to australopithecines.
and:
Australopithecines stood about 1-1.5 m in height and had relatively small brains typically measuring between 370 and 515 cm3 (cc)--only slightly larger than the brain of a chimpanzee. The australopithecine mode of locomotion has been a point of controversy, usually centered around the shape of australopithecine pelvis and knee bones. Early studies believed the australopithecine pelvis was a clear-cut precursor to Homo with human-like bipedality, while later studies of australopithecine locomotion found it to be different from modern apes, but also very different from humans--a distinct mode of locomotion. The most common consensus is that forms of australopithecines were adapted for both tree-climbing and at least semi-upright, if not fully upright walking, having a mode of locomotion different from all extant primates, including humans and modern apes.
there are tons of different ideas, and huge arguments from creationists and evolutionists, and disagreement within both parties within themselves since no conclusion is yet available.
it would appear to me, that apes are more likely a devolution of man from this data.
earlier skulls of earlier genus that were found are not complete enough for me to draw a conclusion, and i cant relate the fragments as a part of the "man" tree.
How does any of this support the theory that apes developed from humans?

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TheNaturalist
Member (Idle past 5713 days)
Posts: 86
Joined: 01-18-2008


Message 35 of 121 (453621)
02-03-2008 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by TheNaturalist
02-03-2008 1:10 PM


Re: correct. but misled.
Ah yes, and just to clarify, "devolution" doesnt make sense, since evolution cant be reversed.
This is because any change in the genetics of a species is evolution, so the "devolution" you are talking about, since it is a change (from humans to apes), is just evolution, not "devolution".

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tesla
Member (Idle past 1622 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 36 of 121 (453622)
02-03-2008 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Coyote
02-03-2008 1:00 PM


Re: Devolution?
im not talking about natural earth disasters. im looking at evolution biologically and alone.
devolution:
like humming bird species, some earlier forms in its genus went extinct by changes in its environment, but the ones who evolved with the changes survived (evolved into a higher form via selection in mating habits) the ones who didn't evolve with the changes went extinct (evolved into a lesser form (such as shorter beak, and couldn't reach nectar in longer flowers, when reachable nectars went extinct)
so devolution , evolving into lesser form, is what i mean by the word, and evolution, describes both evolving to a greater intelligence and form, and the evolving into lesser intelligence and form, which would lead to extinction if the biological evolving was to lose the dependency that the evolved form evolved to survive on.
for instance, a mutt(dog) to be left in the wild would die if there's nothing to scavenge, and its form not suited to hunting the complex environment.
smarter men, may suffer from this, if global changes were to kill technology, and not enough resources are available for the amount of men to find what they need in the natural order. (deer etc.)
so in effect, I'm only saying what is plainly evident: that life can evolve into lesser forms than its original state by choice of mating: stupid men continual mating with stupid women = stupider man. smarter men, mating with smarter women (or greater gene pool) =smarter and more sound man or woman.
the same goes for size an strength, and even biological immunities, tall men and women : mostly tall men and women, shorter men and women : mostly shorter men and woman. of course there are always discrepancies with DNA from the far past, and can produce things like the werewolf syndrome and pink eyes with hairless white skin.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

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tesla
Member (Idle past 1622 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 37 of 121 (453625)
02-03-2008 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by TheNaturalist
02-03-2008 1:14 PM


Re: correct. but misled.
This is because any change in the genetics of a species is evolution, so the "devolution" you are talking about, since it is a change (from humans to apes), is just evolution, not "devolution".
ok. thanks for clarifying terminology.
lesser form: since apes have lesser intelligence than man, and is not the top of all food chains, i consider man superior to monkeys.
what i mean is that a superior form can beget less superior forms than it was initially through evolution.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

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Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2135 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 38 of 121 (453626)
02-03-2008 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by tesla
02-03-2008 1:17 PM


Devolution?
You haven't actually addressed my post #33.
Are you suggesting apes descended (devolved) from humans?
If so, beginning when?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by tesla, posted 02-03-2008 1:17 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by tesla, posted 02-03-2008 1:26 PM Coyote has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1622 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 39 of 121 (453631)
02-03-2008 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Coyote
02-03-2008 1:20 PM


Re: Devolution?
Are you suggesting apes descended (devolved) from humans?
If so, beginning when?
good queston. wish i knew the answere.
evidence does show less intelligent forms of modern man with "apparently" stone tools well before the "modern" ape.
By 1.6 million years ago, an advance in stone tool technology is identified with H. ergaster. Known as the Achulean stone tool industry, it consisted of large cutting tools, primarily hand axes and cleavers. Originally thought to be responsible for the spread of early humans beyond Africa, it is now known that the migration out of Africa predates this tool industry.
At the top-left is the amazingly well preserved KNM ER 3733 cranium. Second from the top is the type specimen of the Homo ergaster species, the KNM ER 992 mandible. At the bottom is the famous Turkana Boy KNM WT 15000, a nearly complete skeleton dating back to 1.6 million years.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Coyote, posted 02-03-2008 1:20 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Coyote, posted 02-03-2008 1:41 PM tesla has replied
 Message 47 by teen4christ, posted 02-04-2008 1:13 PM tesla has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2135 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 40 of 121 (453636)
02-03-2008 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by tesla
02-03-2008 1:26 PM


Re: Devolution?
quote:
evidence does show less intelligent forms of modern man with "apparently" stone tools well before the "modern" ape.
Correct.
But there is no good evidence that the man-ape line converged anytime after the split was completed, probably some 5-6 million years ago.
Each side went its own way, the apes remaining in the forests and the line leading to us heading for the forest edges and grasslands.
I have seen no evidence that man devolved into apes. At least one creationist has posited that after the flood man split and early species of Homo resulted (evolution several hundred times faster than evolutionists posit, and in reverse) but the evidence suggests this is not the case.

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tesla
Member (Idle past 1622 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 41 of 121 (453639)
02-03-2008 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Coyote
02-03-2008 1:41 PM


Re: Devolution?
But there is no good evidence that the man-ape line converged anytime after the split was completed, probably some 5-6 million years ago.
Each side went its own way, the apes remaining in the forests and the line leading to us heading for the forest edges and grasslands.
I have seen no evidence that man devolved into apes. At least one creationist has posited that after the flood man split and early species of Homo resulted (evolution several hundred times faster than evolutionists posit, and in reverse) but the evidence suggests this is not the case.
exactly. there's not enough evidence in the older studies of where man or ape came from to lead to a conclusion either way. but looking at lucy, i see the potential that it could be a point between both worlds.
the ones who choose a more upright and intelligent living pattern to evolve up to man, and those choosing more treelike and scavenging habits evolving to a lesser form.
Edited by tesla, : lasser=lesser

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
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Crooked to what standard
Member (Idle past 5875 days)
Posts: 109
From: Bozeman, Montana, USA
Joined: 01-31-2008


Message 42 of 121 (453760)
02-03-2008 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by molbiogirl
02-01-2008 5:54 PM


quote:
Please try to stay on topic. Don't clutter up the thread with OT crap.
Somebody tried to make me change my signature (which I did), so is it so bad that I try to fix somebody else's. If you read that, it was under a P.S., and I said that I didn't want that to get off-topic.

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Crooked to what standard
Member (Idle past 5875 days)
Posts: 109
From: Bozeman, Montana, USA
Joined: 01-31-2008


Message 43 of 121 (453761)
02-04-2008 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by TheNaturalist
02-01-2008 6:33 PM


quote:
The "flood" would require that more total water existed on earth after the flood than before it, during the flood. This is because if the earth is to be suddenly "flooded with water", there would, of course, have to be much more water on earth after the flood.
Have you even heard of the hydro plate theory? It states that the water could have been stored underground at high pressure and temperature. It also says that the land of the earth was generally flat before the Flood.
Then the water broke loose and the land started to move, there would have been a time while the earth was totally submerged (with the amout of water that's in the earth's oceans). Then, when land colided with opposing forces (the same force that got it started, because the earth is a sphere and the force went all the way around), it would have buckled, raising the land above the water, forming today's oceans.

Iesous
Christos
H
Theos
H
Uios
Soter
Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior.

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 Message 44 by Rahvin, posted 02-04-2008 1:16 AM Crooked to what standard has not replied
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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 7.6


Message 44 of 121 (453767)
02-04-2008 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Crooked to what standard
02-04-2008 12:01 AM


Have you even heard of the hydro plate theory? It states that the water could have been stored underground at high pressure and temperature. It also says that the land of the earth was generally flat before the Flood.
Then the water broke loose and the land started to move, there would have been a time while the earth was totally submerged (with the amout of water that's in the earth's oceans). Then, when land colided with opposing forces (the same force that got it started, because the earth is a sphere and the force went all the way around), it would have buckled, raising the land above the water, forming today's oceans.
Except we can see and measure the motions of tectonic plates as it happens today. We know exactly at what speed they are moving.
Suggesting that they moved at such an incredibly different rate in the past requires a fantastic amount of energy, and an incredible force to slow them down to what is observed today.
It's not even that all of moder Geology says that your little idea (and we've heard it here before, I may add) is completely disassociated with the facts. Every other discipline of science agrees, independently, that the Earth is incredibly old, and that no global flood took place. THere is no genetic bottleneck as should be seen in a flood scenario. There is no universal sediment layer. Radiometric dating disagrees with the young Earth. Recorded human history in such ancient cultures as the Aboriginal Australians disagrees with a global flood. Tree rings, like those from the Methuselah tree disagree with the Flood and a young Earth.
These ridiculous "ideas" paraded around as "alternative theories" without a shred of evidence for them and a mountain of contradictory evidence staring them in the face work only for those without even the barest grasp of the scientific principles they are challenging. It's the function of a mind desperate to cling to its beliefs in the face of contradictions from observable reality.

When you know you're going to wake up in three days, dying is not a sacrifice. It's a painful inconvenience.

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3321 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 45 of 121 (453768)
02-04-2008 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Crooked to what standard
02-04-2008 12:01 AM


Ichthus writes:
Have you even heard of the hydro plate theory?
We've all heard this "hydroplate theory" thrown around for years. 2 questions for you.
Can you present a shred of credible evidence for this so-called theory? How come when it comes to real geology like tectonic plate theory that actually has mountains of evidence you people call it "just a theory" but when it comes to something that has absolutely no evidence for and mountains of contradictory evidence you don't call it "just a theory" but instead worship it?
Has this so-called fountain of the deep been discovered yet?

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