What if you have never heard of God, Jesus, or the Holy Bible?

Question.If someone was raised from birth with no knowledge of God whatsoever, would he go to heaven if he died or if he happened to be around when Jesus' comes back?Also is it the same answer if a child dies at birth?

Do you read the Bible literally schrafinator? If so, and this goes for Gzus too, don't you think what your saying is a bit harsh? Particularly for a child who has only just been born?------------------
When all else fails, anything remaining, no matter how unlikley, is probable.

stevo3890 said:"Jesus says a couple times in the New Testament, if you have heard the word and do not listen to it (not a qoute) then you are in trouble while if you haven't then only God can judge."Can you please tell which me scriptures you are refering too?

If it actually did happen it may have been covered up just like anything else that might cause Kaos or at least have the potentual too. UFO believers could tell you thier stories and all the cover-ups that go with it. What I am trying to say is don't rule it out so swiftly schrafinator, you don't know the truth, you weren't there.
Anyway I've heard more outlandish stories in supposed evolution facts.

Hehe sorry I don't want to start a debate It just think in general there are a lot of evolution theories out there that require more faith than a christian requires to believe in God. I only wanted schrafinator to look with better eyes than that. So it's not been found in Google, doest that mean it doesnt exist?

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Evolution has been observed. Evolution takes less faith than even your existence, until I see you in person.

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So you were there billions of years ago were you? You observed it did you? It requires more faith to believe in billions of years than it does to believe in thousands of years.------------------
When all else fails, anything remaining, no matter how unlikley, is probable.

Can you prove to me that this world is actually billions of years old? No you can't, you don't have all the knowledge in the world, or universe, to decifer that. Just the same I don't have all the knowledge to prove that God exists. For me personally, from the information I have been given and the information I have gotten for myself, I believe it requires more faith to believe in a world billions of years old as opposed to thousands. That is what I believe according the knowledge I know. You may have more knowledge than me or you may not and thats what it all comes down too. So to start a debate full I facts and figures is fun but whats the point? We see the same evidence but look at it under a different light.------------------
When all else fails, anything remaining, no matter how unlikley, is probable.

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It's takes no more faith to believe in a million years than it does to believe in any length of time beyond that you have a recollection of. But faith is irrelevant. Evidence is what matters.

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Have you ever been in love crashfrog? If so can you prove it? Do you have facts and evidence on proving that love actually exists? Have you ever had faith in someone? Is that faith provable by evidence?

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Unfortunately there is 0 evidence for god.

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You mean you have not yet found any knowledge for the existance of God

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The way you put this suggests that you might change your mind with further information.

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No not at all. I am open to hear what evolution and evolutionists have to say as long as evolutionists are open to hear what creationists have to say. You are also forgetting faith here. The faith I have in God, to me, is like a knowledge of a different kind that far outweighs the knowledge of any human or earthly knowledge (this is only one part of what faith means to me). It's something greater than any humun mind can fully comprehend, but it doesn't hurt to try I'm not using faith as an excuse here for my lack of worldly knowledge, there are phyical things that point my mind towards God more than 'No God', but like I said I don't want to start a debate for the reasons I have already mentioned.

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No, from your own statements above it's clear that you're looking at much less evidence than geologists are looking at. You seem to imply that, anyway.

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I am not a geologist nor will I ever be. I do try to soak in whatever I can from what I hear, read and see from geologists though, as you would too I imagine. Regardless on whether they themselves believe in Evolution or Creation.

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No, from your own statements above it's clear that you're looking at much less evidence than geologists are looking at. You seem to imply that, anyway. And if you're coming to erroneous conclusions through ignorance, don't you have any interest in correcting yourself and learning the way things actually are?

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Ignorance is the condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed. I AM educated, I AM aware and I AM informed. Like I said before you may be more educated, aware and informed than I am, then maybe not.
Erroneous means - containing or derived from error; mistaken. Maybe I am, maybe you are? Are you open to that fact? Below is a quote written by Ken Ham of AiG that explains more clearly the point I was trying to make:

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Creationists and evolutionists, Christians and non-Christians all have the same evidencethe same facts. Think about it: we all have the same earth, the same fossil layers, the same animals and plants, the same starsthe facts are all the same.

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The difference is in the way we all interpret the facts. And why do we interpret facts differently? Because we start with different presuppositions. These are things that are assumed to be true, without being able to prove them. These then become the basis for other conclusions. All reasoning is based on presuppositions (also called axioms). This becomes especially relevant when dealing with past events.

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When all else fails, anything remaining, no matter how unlikley, is probable.

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Every day, by my actions towards that person I love. (I hope.) You'd have to ask her if I've succeeded. But yes, I do the things that humans generally recognize that humans do when they're in love. That's sufficient evidence for most people. I don't see what your point is, here. We're talking about physical events with physical evidence. Not human concepts.

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I am refering to things that exist that you cannot see, hear or physically feel. Love exists, that is a fact, you have just proven that. You can prove acts of love but not Love itself. What is love? Where does it come from? My point was that it is like believing if God.

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I can safely state, within the limits of scientific certainty, that there is no god.

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Your happy living in the limits of scientific certainty are you? Sorry but I am not. Simply because they keep finding new evidence, new facts, new knowledge which quite often changes the evolutionary theories that you believed in earlier.------------------
When all else fails, anything remaining, no matter how unlikley, is probable.[This message has been edited by Spud, 06-26-2003]

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Religion, by contrast, makes no attempt to demontsrate independant verifiability. Indeed, the most direct clainms to direct insight are also claimed in special apoologia fior why it CANNOT be proved. The priest asserts that god speaks to them directly and privately, and that the failure of othersb to hear is symptiomatic of their lack of faith. And besides, god is ineffable.

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What a crock! Your limiting a creationist to a particalar religon involving priests, catholic perhaps? I am not catholic and I dont believe what you just wrote. And you say religon makes no attempt to demontsrate independant verifiability? Where have you been man! The quote I mentioned is not garbage it is basic common sence.[This message has been edited by Spud, 06-26-2003]

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I think it's indefensible to keep pointing to the imperfections in our knowledge even as they are whittled away by new discoveries. For a good example, get into our ongoing discussion of radiometric dating. You can either say "we don't know everything, therefore we can know nothing

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I, the same as you, do not know EVERYTHING but we do know things, lots of things! Anyone who thinks 'therefore we can know nothing' is, like you said, attempting to hide in a shrinking area of uncertainty. That is not me. I am certain of some things and you are certain of some things. I am unsure of other things and, so are you.

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So the object of my love is sufficiently real to rule out the possibility that my love for her is an illusion.

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Ok so lets say that love is actually just an illusion. Where then did the illusion come from?

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Show me some acts of god. Show me some evidence of his existence. I've been looking for years. I've been asking around. If you think you have some, share it. If you're so sure there's evidence of god, why don't you tell me what it is?

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You are either not looking hard enough or you are choosing to ignore An evolutionist with great knowledge who is not bent on disproving the existence of God will tell you straight down the line that there are some things that point more towards a creator then something that has evolved. 'Language' I have read recently is a hard one for evolutionists to prove has evolved.

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science is in constant approach to greater accuracy. Sounds good to me. I'd rather be almost right and getting closer, than totally and eternally wrong.

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It sounds to me like you'd rather believe the confortable and unchanging fiction because it's less metal work for you than keeping up with science. I don't understand how someone could live like that.

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Hehe and I could twist that right around and say I'd rather be eternally right, than almost right and getting closer. I could also say it's more comfortable and much less metal work to believe we have no creator. To walk with Jesus is a hard road to take crashfrog I try and keep up with science as much as I possibly can. My apologies if my knowledge is not as good as yours, or anyone else in this forum but I do my best to learn whatever I can whenever I can, as I hope you do.

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I also don't think our schools should teach children that my girlfriend should be loved. I don't feel we should pledge allegiance to one nation, under my girlfriend. And I don't think our currency should be stamped with, "In Rachel We Trust".

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I'm Australian, they don't pledge allegiance(I don't think) and our currency is not stamped with, "In God We Trust" I do however believe your girlfriend Rachel should be loved, and not just in school either.

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Any findings of science are availiable to be rewritten in the light of new evidence. Do your beliefs have that kind of flexibility?

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I believe in the Bible. I believe it was written by God through man. I believe it is perfect and there is nothing flexable in perfect. So no they don't

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As for "interpretation", if something is red, it's red. There's no way to "interpret" it as blue. No matter what your "interpretation", all our dating methods - each independant of the other in terms of mechanism - point to a very old earth indeed. The only way to interpret that differently is with a theory of creation with apparent age, and if that's the case, why would you believe in a god that would lie to you?

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Dogs are colorblind. When they see something red, they see a different color. The dog is positive that the color is some sort of mixture of black and white. All the other dogs are certain of it too, it is a fact. There is NO WAY to interpret it as red As zephyr mentioned earlier, there is an ongoing discussion of radiometric dating between evolutionists and creationist. I believe nobody is perfect, in fact I believe nothing on this planet or universe is perfect. So I don't see how something man-made like radiometric dating could be anything close to accurate. I can also say the same about my knowledge of God. But that doesn't stop me from trying to perfect it. And it doesn't stop you from trying to prove that we all evolved

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You don't think that humans are capable of accuracy within limits? Do you distrust grocery scales? Computers?

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Or do you trust measurements that conform to your presuppositions, and ignore those that don't, with these kinds of mental hand-waving? A little more intellectual bravery on your part might help you look at data that might not agree with your worldview.

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Of course humans are capable of accuracy within limits. My point is it IS within limits. It is not perfect it can never be 100% accurate. It can never be perfect. A computer is never wrong, but it was made by man by materials from earth. It is still not perfect. I feel I have been very clear on this.

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They don't see a color. (They're color-blind.) And so what? Is your argument that creationists are blind to certain types of evidence? I'd certainly agree with you on that.

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That is why I said a mixture of black and white, which are not colors. I thought that was odvious. And yes creationists are blind to certain types of evidence. So are evolutionists and humans, and color-blind dogs and every other other living creature the roams this planet That was the point I was trying to make.

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So the object of my love is sufficiently real to rule out the possibility that my love for her is an illusion.

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Sorry, my mistake, I totally miss-read that :$ Agian I was not refering to the object of your love but love itself. Not acts of love or objects of love, but Love. You can't see it, hear it or physically feel it. You can't get any physical evidence for it. Does that mean it does not exist? Or is it just an illusion like what I thought you meant before?

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how do you explain that science appears to be moving away from your position?

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It is by the fault of man that science appears to be moving away. Like I said before we are not perfect. We could be just like that dog, not seeing it right because we know any better. And we don't look with perfect eyes, feel with perfect hands, think with pefect minds and we most certainly do not use perfect tools to measure things by.I will answer your other replies later, I am very busy atm but I will get back to you asap. My apologies.
Also how do I do the quote's the way you do them with the borders? I'm using bcode but I like yours better HTML is it?

I am trying tell you my view of what faith is to me. I am trying to put it into words but as you can see it's pretty hard So when I refer to love I liken it to faith (and God to a point) as in it is something not provable by physical evidence but none the less, still exists.
As far as providing some evidence of God, this particular forum is about Faith and Belief, which is what I am discussing. Anyway like I have mentioned earlier, what would be the point, neither of us are going to come to an agreement on evidence given. We see and think about the same facts in different ways like I have said before. Correct, the truth that I believe the Bible is, and God, could be just another matrix and I don't know any better Many ppl interpret the Bible in many different ways, I could be way off, who knows?!? Can you admit you could be way off in your beliefs?
But by faith I know He is there, like love. The Bible also says 'God is Love' but thats a whole other story I cannot deny God, I feel his presence everyday, I talk to Him every day. The emotion and Love I get from God far surpasses anything I have ever experienced or felt in my entire life. Call it an illusion or whatever it does not bother me. And if your wondering I don't use it as an excuse either, when I don't have any physical evidence for the existance of God. If and when I don't have the knowledge to prove red is red, I will be the first to admit it. ------------------
When all else fails, anything remaining, no matter how unlikley, is probable.[This message has been edited by Spud, 06-28-2003]

Sorry for the delay ppls, busy boy Again this post is about Faith and Belief, when I find the time I will post a discussion with you elsewhere I am very busy atm and this sort of discussion/debate could go on forever Agian sorry. You accept love for whatever it is you think it is. Yet you don't know how it works or where it came from. And you can't find any phyiscal evidence for its existance. Yet you are happy to live with that fact. You are happy knowing it exists without having the proof. However mention the word God and all of a sudden you need evidence, you need hard physical evidence before you even consider this supposed creater, or state of mind, or whatever you want to refer to it as. Well all choose what we want to believe and what we don't want to believe, regardless of what evidence we have and don't have.------------------
When all else fails, anything remaining, no matter how unlikley, is probable.