Biblical Translation--Eden

Jaywill, Agreed. Amen. The cherubim signify God's glory and the flaming sword signifies God's holiness and righteousness, though others may disagree. Man was cut off from the tree of life because he could not meet the standards of God's glory, His holiness, and His righteousness. So Christ came and satisfied every requirement of God, which man could not do. I do appreciate the contrast between Genesis and Revelation. And let us not forget the city, which is the Church. For it bears not just the image of God but the color of God, signifying we are God within AND without.Remember how Lucifer, in the beginning, bore the glory of God on the outside only. Inwardly he was not constituted with God. So I think there is a great significant in the simple act of God placing man before the Tree of Life and commanding him to eat. Is there any other way God could practically accomplish his purpose?I do think a proper understanding of Genesis requires a good look at Revelation. If Revelation is the conclusion, Genesis is the introduction.I love the Bible.As a side note, I think a great number of people make a conceptual error, thinking the great struggle in the universe is between good and evil when in truth the real struggle is between life and death.Edited by gomisaburo, : No reason given.Edited by gomisaburo, : Dag nabit...spelling errors got me.

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Those who come forward to God must believe that He is...(Heb 11:6)

The New Testament discribes the advent of being given an enlivened spirit as being of a sober mind."For God has not given us a spirit of cowardice, but of power and of love and of sobermindedness." (2 Tim. 1:7) There are many other passages as well which confirm that sobermindedness rather than any state of mental "trance" would be discriptive of regeneration. This is may also be like saying that Christ is too wonderful to not be real. I agree with Tertullian in this quotation. I see.Do you ever sense that something is missing? You may not know what it is. Have you ever gone to an event which made you very happy, say, like a party, but in the midst of the gaity feel that something is still missing in your heart?I first remember being accutely aware of this when a young boy. At night I crawled onto the roof of my house late at night. The moonlight was shining on the autumn leaves and made a splendid and beautiful scene. But I had to ask myself in the midst of such beauty "How come this is not enough to make me happy?"I felt that there was something missing. Being born of God in receiving Jesus Christ addressed that sense of vacuum that was within me. You also might give some thought to the teaching that God loves you to the extent that He desires that you share with Him eternity. That is quite a love. My favorite translation - the RcV puts it a little but differently. But I am well aware of the quote. "God is Spirit" would refer to the Captital S Spirit who is God Himself in the Third __________ of the Triune God.I place a blank _______________ because human words fail me to discribe such a mystery. I could borrow the word "Person" as in "Third Person of the Triune God". But "Person" could only be temporarily borrowed and not stressed too much. Otherwisee it could lead to a belief in three Gods. And we know the Bible only discribes God as one.Anyway in the passage the second small s "spirit" is the human spirit, I believe - "God is Spirit. And they that worship Him must worship in spirit and in truthfulness"This involves man worshipping God the Spirit with his regenerated human spirit. For in Christ's salvation:"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)The capital S Holy Spirit unites and joins with the human regenerated spirit to become one, mingled, united, and blended spirit.It is in this mingled spirit that man must worship God the Spirit in truthfulness.Also helpful to this joining of God's Spirit with man's spirit in regeneration are the following passages:"The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God" (Rom 8:16). Meaning that deep within the saved person the Spirit of the Triune God bears witness along with our spirit that we have a life, "organic," family relationship with our Father. We feel then quite comfortable to not only call Him God but - Abba- or Daddy - our Father."That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6). Here again the Capital S Spirit is the source of the birth of the small s human spirit. That which is born of the Spirit which is the Truine God is the human spirit of man."The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you." (2 Tim. 4:22)This is Paul's last written word in the New Testament. The last word is a crucial word. He wants Timothy never to forget this one cardinal fact. The Lord Jesus Christ is with his regenerated spirit.As in the passages above. Timothy's spirit has been born of the Spirit. Timothy's spirit also has the Holy Spirit bearing joint witness with his spirit that he is a child of the Father. And Timothy is therefore one mingled spirit with the Lord. Christ is with his spirit. And Timothy should never forget this.Since the believer has the Lord Jesus with his or her spirit - the New Testament affirms that Jesus Christ Himself lives within the believer:"Test yourselves whether you are in the faith' prove yourselves. Or do you not realize about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved?" (2 Cor. 13:5)Paul has to remind the Corinthians that Jesus Christ is in them. He is the Lord who is with their spirit. He is the life giving Spirit who is one spirit with them and bears witness within them."the last Adam [Christ] became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)To give life means really to give God as life - to give Himself (Jesus the Son of the Father) as the divine life to blend and mingle with the life of the believer and receiver:"As many as RECEIVED Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name." (John 1:12) The New Testament distinguishes between the soul of man and the spirit of man (1 Thess. 5:23; Heb. 4:12)This distinction is not as clear in the Old Testament. Though it is seen somewhat in many passages of the OT, it becomes much clearer as God's new covenant economy also becomes clearer.The spirit of man is the innermost part of man's being. It is deeper than the soul which is the seat of the mind, emotion, and will. The spirit of man is the seat of three functions:1.) Fellowship
2.) Intuition
3.) ConscienceThe heart of man is one part of the spirit plus three parts of the soul - the conscience plus the mind, emotion, and will. These four thing compose the biblical heart.The spirit of fallen man is comatose. It is in a deadened state. However I am reluctant to say that it is completely dead because the humam conscience does function even in the unbelievers in Christ who have not been regenerated.But deep within we are born into this world "alienated from the life of God" (Eph. 4:18). We are estranged from the Person of God. We are alienated from His life. Not only are we born into the world alienated from God. We are born alienated from the life of God. This life of God is meant to be imparted into man.That is why the created man was placed before the tree of life. But when Adam sinned he was barred from taking the tree of life. And man began his alienation from the life of God.That life today is reclaimed in the resurrected Christ the Son of God. These words are trustworthy and reliable.I will have to continue latter. Yes, I am aware of aletheia. My best man at my wedding named one of his girl children Aletheia. He was a Christian brother. The model He taught was to love God will whole heart, mind, strength, etc. So that would involve ones whole being.Actually in the new covenant the worship is the live God. The worship is not to prostrate oneself or sing a hymn exclusively. Rather the worship is to live each moment in the sphere and realm of God - one spirit with Him.So our talking, our washing the dishes, out driving, our working, our daily living would be a worship. This is how He lived in the realm of His Father. Of course there is time also to sing, praise, pray in that sense of worship also.But in John chapter four drinking the living water which is installed within the believer and which gushes up as a spring into eternal life, is the worship in spirit and in truth.To allow the indwelling Christ to saturate, fill, spread, into every part of our being - is the worship that the Father desires. I will have to continue with this latter.Goodnight.

Autumnman wrote, In Acts 13:33 the apostle Paul translated the Hebrew word “yalad” into the Greek word “gennao” to describe the way in which the Lord Jesus, as the first born from among the dead, was begotten of God (Psa. 2:7). The Lord Jesus used gennao in John 3:3 to describe how those who believed into Him were born again. So it appears yalad, and not bara', more accurately describes what happens when we are born again.I don’t think anyone could really argue the point that all creation was “born” of God in the sense that you described. But I also don’t think a person could successfully argue that all creation was born of God in the same way regenerated believers are born of God, as described by both the Lord Jesus and the apostle Paul. The difference is quite significant.Edited by gomisaburo, : No reason given.

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Those who come forward to God must believe that He is...(Heb 11:6)

jaywill:Autumnman wrote: jaywill replied: The term "absurd" means: "utterly or obviously senseless, illogical or untrue, contrary to all reason or common sense; foolish or false" (Webster's Unabridged Dictionary, 2003).No. Tertullian is not saying "that Christ is too wonderful to not be real." Tertullian is saying what he says, The very idea of a bodilly resurection after death is "absurd" {illogical, untrue, contray to reason and common sense, foolish and false} and therefore such a rediculous idea can only be "believed" by those who have abandoned their mental faculty of reason and common sense, and suspended their disbelief because there is nothing but empirical evidence proving that such an idea is in fact "absurd."In the last two thousand years how many "good", "righteous" Christians have died and been burried in the ground? Name one who has not succumed to their mortality. Now remember, this is after Jesus death and supposed "bodily resurrection."In Matthew 16:28 Jesus says, "There be some standing here which shall not taste of death till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."Who were the "some standing there" he was talking about?In Matthew 24:34 Jesus says, "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."Meaning "the generation of those standing there."In Mark 9:1 Jesus says, "That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kngdom of God come with power."In Mark 13:30 Jesus says, "That this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.Again, this generation pertains to "some of them that stand there."Luke 9:27 Jesus says, "There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God."Luke 21:32 Jesus says, "This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled."That "generation did pass away" and those "standing there" did die, and the kingdom of God is still being waited for two thousand years later.Isn't that interesting.Regards;
Ger

gomisaburo: You wrote: I am not clear; Are you monotheistic or polytheistic?Two or three supernatural beings constitutes "polytheisim." You are aware of that fact, right?Isaiah 45:5 describes yhwh God saying, "I am the LORD, and there is no other; beside me there are no other gods."
Isaiah 45:6,7 state, "I am the LORD, and there is no other. 7. I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create evil/calamity; I the LORD do all these things."The term ">elohiym" as lower case "god" or "gods" denotes "one or more deities presiding over some portion of worldly affairs."Isaiah describes yhwh=the LORD clearly saying that "there are no other gods besides Him." It is yhwh=the LORD who forms light and creates darkness, makes peace and creates bad/evil/injury/calamity.So, where does Lucifer/the Devil/Satan/death fit into what yhwh=the LORD is saying?Regards;
Ger

gomisaburo: You wrote: What chapters and verses in the Gospels are you referring to? Where does the Lord Jeus describe the way regenerated believers are born of God?Regards;
Ger

In Isaiah the prophecy of the incarnation goes like this: The very first thing this Person will be called is Wonderful which in the Hebrew is peleh. The word peleh carries these definitions:something unusual
unheard of
extraordinary
hard to understand
beyond one's powers
too difficult
incomprehensibleThis word is used to describe the parellel lines of the prophecy - a born child is called The Mighty God. And a given Son is called the Eternal Father.How can a born human child be the Mighty God? This is peleh - Wonderful. How can a given Son be the Eternal Father? This too is beyond one's powers and unheard of. It is peleh - wonderful.The same word is used in Genesis 18:14 - "Is anything TOO HARD for the Lord?" (my emphasis)It is also used in Psalm 139:6 - "Such knowledge is TOO WONDERFUL for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it."It is also used in Judges 13:18 - "But the angel of the Lord said to him, Why do you ask My name, seeing it is Wonderful?"Where as you may stress that the incarnation of God into man is absurd, I would prefer to use the biblical term Wonderful. It is very high knowledge that I cannot attain to. Nevertheless this Wonderful Person, according to the prophecy, is "unto us".He is experiencial and enjoyable. We can enjoy Him for He is unto us. We just cannot attain to a full comprehension of Him because He is beyond our powers - peleh. Then again we have this answer Christ prayed to His Father when some rejected His claims: It pleases God to resist the proud. He gives grace to those who humble themselves. He has hidden these revelations from those who are wise in their own eyes and consider themselves too intelligent.Even Proverbs which we were discussing said that there was more hope for a fool than there was for someone who is wise in their own eyes. At any rate I consider it God's mercy that He has revealed His incarnation to me. Sometimes I can hardly believe that I do believe.I am thankful that He has given me the ability to believe the Bible.Further comments will have to wait until latter.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Otto, I tend to stay on this Room of the Forum because it is about Bible interpretation. Sometimes when I have to respond to an outlandish accusation I wander into an area which may be more appropriate on another more philosophical room.I try to stick to "What the Bible really means" kinds of issues. And in this case the Bible really means that Jesus resurrected and became the life giving Spirit - a form in which He can live within us.Anyone is free to say that they don't believe this. I try only to point out that this is really what the Scriptures say and mean. Occasionally I feel compelled to add that it is my personal experience. I agree that we sometimes add experiencial and subjective testimonials.You are free to think that this is so subjective that it cannot be real. I am happy just to be able to confirm what I say is the Christian experience with plain and clear teachings from the New Testament, especially. This may serve to demonstrate that way before I said it, someone else taught it.I am happy to get someone to admit "Yes, that appears to be what the Bible said and apparently what it means."I am happy to get that far. This area you desire to engage me in is not my strong area of research. I think tautology is the word I am looking for. Or you want to talk about rationalism or the objectivity of history and formulating adaquate tests for the truth.There are some rooms which seem more suited for these talks. I tend not to go there too much because that is not my area of in depth study. When people come here and say things that the Bible teaches which I know are incorrect, that is when I am likely to counter with a response.For example - that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and the tree of life were one tree or one wood. Now that not only has some important erroneous implications. But I also think it is simply not what the Scripture says.Then I point out why it does not mean that. And I add something about the spiritual errors which may occur because of taking such a position.The poster in essence said that Christ was not real. I responded that He was. Understandably you may want to jump in with a more philosophical angle about tautology. But at the moment I don't have much to respond on the philosophical questions of how do we know what truth is, etc.Interesting subject. I am not prepared to get deep into that at this time. There is at least one Christian Apologist on the Internet by the name of Metacroc who will deeply engage you in these matters of philosophical aspects of reality.If you find him and get into a talk with him let me know. Then I can learn some more by watching you two go at it.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

jaywill: You wrote: Actually pele> the masculine noun in Isaiah 9:5 {KJV 9:6} does not; “pele>= wonder, extraordinary.” I find it difficult to believe that you are equating the Heb. verb “pala>=difficult to understand” to the English adjective “absurd.” That is “pala>=astounding” to me.The Heb. verb is “pala>=be surpassing, extraordinary” and in the context of mental comprehension means, “to be difficult to understand.”Pr. 30:18. There are three things which are {pala>= too wonderful} for me, yea, four which I know not: 19. The way of an eagle in the air; the way of a serpent upon a rock; the way of a ship in the midst/heart of the sea; and the way of a man with a maid. The Heb masculine noun in Isaiah 9:5 {BHS} is pele>” and means: wonder, extraordinary. And “yo0etz=to advise” is a verb substantive “advisor”BHS Isaiah 9:5 {KJV 9:6} reads: kiy=for yeled=a boy yoolad=was begotten lanu=unto us ben=a son nitan=he was given lanu=unto us vatehiy=and it was hamiserah=the rule 0al=upon shikemo=his shoulders vayiqra>=and it was called shemo=his name pele>=extraordinary yo0etz=advisor >el=mighty one gibor=valiant/strong >abiy=my father 0ad=perpetuity sar=chieftain shalom=soundness.Is. 9:5 can be rendered: For a boy was begotten unto us, a son was given unto us, and the rule was upon his shoulders, so he was called the name: extraordinary advise; mighty one who is valiant; my father of perpetuity; chieftain of soundness.The King James Version of Is. 9:6 reads: For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulders; and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, the everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.The KJV is in fact sadly lacking in accuracy. But believe. You must believe.The Hebrew version of this verse has nothing at all to do with Christian Mythology.Regards,
Ger

I suggest that you start from Genesis and read through to, let us say at least the book of Malachi.Make note of how many times people thought what God said was absurd. Just to get you started.1.) Abraham and Sarah, the childless couple were promised by God to have a son.Sarah laughed. She thought it was absurd.2.) The Jews when it was told that Moses would lead them out of Egypt.They also thought it was absurd.3. The Hebrews when they were told they would conquer the land of Canaan with its fierce tribes.They thought this was absurd.4. The Israelites thought not having a king like the nations around them was probably absurd. So they received a king Saul.5.) That David a youth could defeat Galiath a giant in battle.David's brothers and a lot of other soldiers thought that this was absurd.I could go on and go. Your English definition of absurd doesn't prove that much.Is anything too hard for Jehovah?Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

jaywill: You ask: Apparently inspiring a grown human being to engage his God-given mental faculty of "reason" is an incridibly difficult task for "Jehovah" to accomplish.Webster's Unabridged Dictionary define "reason" as

quote:

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The highest faculty of the human mind, by which man is distinguished from brutes, and which enables him to contemplate things spiritual as well as material, to weigh all that can be said or thought for and against thenm, and hence to draw conclusions and to act accordingly; a faculty of the mind by which it distinguishes truth from falsehood and good from evil.

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Human beings are deceived by the human imagination all the time. In God's natural creation there is no premeditated guile.Please reply to what I wrote below. Regards,
Ger

Autumman says,[qs/]Luke 9:27 Jesus says, "There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God."Luke 21:32 Jesus says, "This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled."That "generation did pass away" and those "standing there" did die, and the kingdom of God is still being waited for two thousand years later.Isn't that interesting.[qs] Sorry I came in on this very late it looks like a very interesting discussion. I would like to comment on one of the issues here to shed a little light on the subject.As a matter of fact the Kingdom has come that you are requesting in your above statement. At an earlier date Christ told Peter, "I will give you the Keys to the kingdom". On the first Pentecost after his resurrection, Peter used those keys to preached the first sermon of the new covenate, to show how to enter the kingdom. The Church is the kingdom and the kingdom is the Church. Notice the words of the Apostle Paul. "He has translated us out of darkness, into the kingdom of his dear Son". Paul was talking to people that were alive and speaking about thier present condition and situation. Christ's prophecy that day, did come true and those people did not die until they saw the Kingdom coming with Power and demonstration of the Holy spirit, as was witnessed by the miracles that day by the Apostles. Daniel 2:44, Says, "In the days of thses kings, he will set up a kingdom on the earth that will not be destroyed from the face of the earth". The Churc or kingdom has been here for 2000 years and is not going anywhere. ThanksD Bertot

bertot: It is a pleasure to meet you. You wrote: Which "church" are you talking about? There are now so many different "churches" with so many different interpretation and orthodox views it is hard to keep track. They all point at each other claiming that they are the true followers of Christ. In 325 A.D. there was only one authorized "church/kingdom" and it was the Roman Universal {Catholic} Church. Your New Testament canon was descided upon at Nicaea where the Roman Emperor Constantine presided over the council of Christian bishops. The Holy Roman Empire is at the foundation of the Protestant Reformation movement that transpired in Europe on Oct. 31, 1517 by Martin Luther in Wittenberg, Germany. So, again, What "church" are you talking about?Regards,
Ger

[qs/]Which "church" are you talking about? There are now so many different "churches" with so many different interpretation and orthodox views it is hard to keep track. They all point at each other claiming that they are the true followers of Christ. In 325 A.D. there was only one authorized "church/kingdom" and it was the Roman Universal {Catholic} Church. Your New Testament canon was descided upon at Nicaea where the Roman Emperor Constantine presided over the council of Christian bishops. The Holy Roman Empire is at the foundation of the Protestant Reformation movement that transpired in Europe on Oct. 31, 1517 by Martin Luther in Wittenberg, Germany. So, again, What "church" are you talking about?Regards,[qs] The Church I am speaking of is the one mentioned in the New Testament.Ofcourse there will always be false ideas and false positions along side the truth. Even God (Christ) had to deal with erroneous ideas during his days here. He always referenced the scriptures to correct thier error. In other words he accepted the old testament as Gods written word. The Roman Catholic church was a slow process of error from that New Testament pattern.It took reformation to return to the exact pattern set out in the New Testament.It is only part true tht the council of Nicea decided what the scriptures were. It was well know long before that council what constituted the accurate, verifiable written documents. they simply confirmed what was already known for hundreds of years previous.They did not decide what would be reguarded as truth, they confirmed what the truth already was and known. In other words the refomation would have no meaning, if the reformers did not have a standard to return to. The documents and manuscripts are all there long before that councils decisions.As you did not respond directly to my argument previously presented. I assume atleast from a scriptual standpoint you agree with the argument I presented about the kingdom and the Church. And atleast aknkowledge that the Church might be the kingdom correct?It has always interested me that people will use the scriptures, and speak about them as if they are true to present and argument, then as soon as they see the validity of the argument presented from the totality of scripture they automatically start questioning thier reliability. You cant eat your cake and have it too.Thanks
D Bertot

bertot: I thought I did respond. I will try again. You wrote: Since we still do not know what "church and/or kingdom" you are actually talking about, I will simply say, No! That "generation" did pass away, and "all" that was to be fulfilled was actually not fulfilled. If "all" had been fulfilled it would not have taken the Reformation movement to "fulfill" any portion of it.Furthermore, the date of the N.T. Book of Revelation is fixed around the year 95 A.D. According to my calculations Jesus says to John 95 years or so after Jesus death, "Behold, I come quickly" (22:7), "Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand" (22:10, "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be" (22:12), "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root of the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star." (22:16), "Surely I come quickly" (22:20). Revelation 22:6 ends with these words, "... the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servents the things which must shortly be done" (KJV).The Greek term "en tachos=quickly, shortly, speedily, soon."Are not the Christians, or at least many of them, still waiting for John's Revelation to come to pass?Who wants what both ways?So, around 100 years or so after Jesus speaks of those standing there of that generation and all that was to be fulfilled, after that generation has indeed passed away Jesus supposedly says again that what is written in Revelation will "en tachos=soon" be realized.Again, we seem to have a glitch in the system, so to speak. The "churches" are apparently not performing according to "God's" plan. This strongly suggests that perhaps "the plan" is not God's at all.Regards,
GerEdited by autumnman, : your for you