Meaning of "Us" in Genesis.

The Hebrew word translated as "virgin" in my English Version of the Bible does not mean "cannot be an unmarried woman."Arguments about that word to show various facets of its application don't prove that the word CANNOT apply to the concept of an unwed young woman as we understand "virgin" - in this case miraculously conceiving and giving birth to a child (without the help of a human male source of sperm).At best all you can do is show that the word can take on OTHER meanings. You cannot prove that it can never mean "virgin".And that dispute is about Isaiah 7:14 rather than 9:6.Aside from this the Apostle Matthew says that Isaiah 7:14 was fulfilled in the birth of Jesus from the virgin woman Mary. That is enough to end the argument right there. I do not regard the New Testament as a faulty error prone commentary on the Hebrew Bible.Matthew said that that verse means the birth of Jesus from Mary. Then that is what it means. That is the end of the discussion for those of us who regard the New Testament as the word of God.But in addition, the translators of the Greek Version of the book of Isaiah used a Greek word to communicate to us that the concept of virgin as we know it should be translated in Isaiah. They could not have been biased towards the events of the New Testament because the translation took place some 300 years prior to the birth of Jesus and the Christian doctrines of the NT.Without being enfluenced by NT doctrine which had not yet been developed they provided their understanding in Greek of what the Hebrew word there should signify.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I understand that the passage of Isaiah's prophecy had some immediate application. I understand that it had meaning to the contemporaries of that day long before Jesus was born.The birth of the prophet Isaiah's son in chapter 8:3 was probably what was immediately intended.But prophecy also has its ultimate fulfillment. And we find the incarnation of Jesus born of the virgin Mary to be a fulfillment in an ultimate sense to the temporary application to Isaiah's son in 8:3. The fact that the New Testament apostle tells us the same is the main reason for my understanding.If one wants to one can examine the surrounding verses and reason that the prophecy has absolutely nothing to do with the birth of Jesus. I sympathize with that kind of doubting but I don't agree with it.Yes, I could have a Bible Study of Isaiah which concerned only the facts significant to his life and times. I can study the Old Testament for its own sake.However, the nature of God's word is mysterious. So much of what God speaks and does is based on His previous words and actions. And the more ultimate fulfillment of 7:14 is the birth of a man with two natures - divine and human, from the virgin woman Mary. That was indeed a sign and a miraculous act of God.This one was truly Immanuel - God with us. Jesus Christ as a God-man, as the mingling of God and man is more ultimately the fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy.I do not say that 7:14 had no more contemporary significance to Isaiah's immediate time. I only say that the more ultimate fulfilment is with Jesus Christ.Think of a pyramid coming up out of the ocean. When it comes up only three feet it is a pyramid. When it ascends up thirty feet it still has the shape of a pyramid. When it ascends up one thousand feet it still has the shape of a great pyramid.Let us see this mighty shape now coming up a whole mile, it is then a huge pyramid. At every stage the shape is the same.This is how the prophetic word of God is at times. The fulfillments do come sometimes in more than one stage. The essential shape is the same but the power and majesty encrease.I take then that 7:14 had some contemorary significance to its audience. But a mightier and more transcendent application God reserved for it latter.

[/b] No it does not disregard the primary text. Behind the Bible is the living God. And he has used His word again at a latter time in His ongoing move to carry out His eternal purpose. You have to decide who you are going to believe.In human history there is ONE outstanding figure who was born of a virgin - that is Jesus of Nazareth. Not only is He the God-man born miraculously from the virgin He is also "the seed of the woman" promised in Genesis 3:15[/b] Who would crush the head of the serpent and have His own heal bruised in the process.You are trying very hard to ignore the "elaphant under the rug" so to speak, in the living room. Christ is too significant to ignore or brush aside. And making excuses that "Well, Islam also said something about what Isaiah meant" doesn't help the case to render the testimony of Jesus Christ insignificant.There is a lesson to be learned from Moses in the Exodus. The Bible tells us that when God sent Moses to perform signs before Pharoah, that Pharoah resisted by providing his own magicians who could do some of the same signs also. This imitation was meant to nullify and delute the claims of Moses as he spoke for God. Because Pharoah had magicians who by thier occult arts could imitate the miracle of God, Pharoah's heart was hardened. He thought "What is so special about what Moses does. My magicians can do the same."Again in the miracle of water turned to blood at the command of Moses and Aaron on behalf of God, the Egyptian magicians did the same with their secret spells (Exo. 7:22)Do not be fooled by imitation.Again in the sign of the plague of frogs - You should know that in spite of these imitations for a season eventually Pharoah was subdued by God and let Israel go.Do not be impressed that Islam can pretend to be like the Gospel of Christ. Do not be hardened because the Moslem religion can refer "prophetically" to Isaiah and tailor it refer to Islam's false teachings. This is like the magicians of Egypt imitating the acts of God through Moses.What will you do if you are alive when the Antuichrist comes? He will come pretending to be the killed and resurrected Savior of the world. The decption will be so powerful that millions will be deceived. But he is Antichrist and not Christ the Messiah. To whom would you point to as being like Jesus Christ ? Who would you refer to as testifying in a more powerful way that he was in God and God was in him?Surely, you would compare Mohammed or Joseph Smith to Christ.
Then maybe you would.As for me I think Jesus occupies a class of men of which He alone is the member. The closest imitation is no where near the splendour of Christ. What we have to do is understand how Hezekiah and Cyrus and the son of Isaiah are all pointers to the Son of God Who by that time was to come. Sure, Cyrus was God's servant. But he is pointer to Christ. Yes Isaiah speaks of Cyrus an of Israel as the servant of God. But these eventually become pointers to the Son of God.Through Isaiah the prophet God warns the Israelites that He will perform new things which will be more significant than the things He performed in the past: God prepares His seekers to witness new mighty acts of truth and justice which He will perform. That would also include the "new covenant" which He promised through Jeremiah the prophet.Such a new thing, such a new covenant involves the incarnation of God to be a man, His life on earth, death, resurrection, enthronement and dispensing of Himself into His redeemed believers. Of course you can pick and choose your scholars.I trust the apostle Matthew in his applying Isa. 7:14 to the miraculous birth of Jesus.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

ICANT,Isaiah 53, that great prophecy concerning the Christ the Suffering Servant, begins with these words:"Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Jehovah been revealed?" (Isaiah 53:1) It seems that the prophet complains that though they (the prophets) have prophesied, no one has believed. All have "discredited" the words of the prophets. God has spoken through the prophets concerning the Messiah. But Isaiah asks "Who has believed our report?"Regardless of how man has disbelieved and discredited the Messianic prophecies the word of God has stood firm. We needn't be concerned that the unbelieving majority has remained stubburn and slow to recognize that Christ is being identified in several great Messianic promises. Isaiah 7:14 being also one of them.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Isaiah also wrote this:"Turn to Me and be saved all the ends of the earth, For I am God and there is no one else." (Isa. 45:22) Thankfully his personal aspirations did not intefere with his faithfulness to speak what God had put in his mouth to proclaim.

IamJoseph, If your complaint is that Christians regard Jews as atheists in general, this does not have to be repeated by you again to any Christians I know writing to this forum.You do not have remind me again and again based on the martyrdom of many Jews that they were not atheists. We know that of course they believed in God.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Ramoss,Hello. Long time no hear. I think in the past on this Forum we did debate this pretty thoroughly. I could be mistaken another forum for this one.Where is your evidence that this is so? Maybe we'll get into this again.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

All the ends of the earth means all the peoples of the earth.It certainly does not exclude the Jews. It includes them. Yet it includes the Gentiles as well. What does that have to do with Isaiah 45:22?Other than to say that "Boy. That is lousy and dirty that the "European church" persecuted jews and barred them from their land ... I mean thanks a lot you dirty guys. You believe the Jewish Bible and yet you turn around and reward the jews that way? How lousy of the European church!"Well you may have a point that that was really dirty. It still doesn't cause Isaiah 45:22 and hundreds of other passages like it to somehow disappear from the Bible as if God never said it.Let God be true and every man a liar. The dirty deed of the European Christendom does not make God take back His words or actions.Have you noticed the large number of evangelical Christians who are supportive of Israel in the US? I agree that it was a great event probably miraculous. But what does that have to do with Isaiah 45:22? How great a miracle the reformation of Israel has absolutely no effect to nullify Isaiah 45:22.God is not a myopic in His vision as you are. He is able to do more than one thing at a time. He has yet even more splendid things He will do with Israel. This is the only the indication of the nearing of summer.If you think the return to Israel has nothing to do with the second coming of Christ, then I think you have really missed the point to a large measure. Of course not. In fact I think I embrace much more of the book than you do.By the way, where do you live? Have you gone back to Israel yet? And if not why not ? I think the real steadfast Jews return to Israel. I hope you're not sitting comfortably in a rocking chair in some flesh pot bragging about other Jews going back to Israel.What about IamJoseph ? Are YOU there?Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I don't agree that the gospel villifies the people of Isaiah. Here we have Jesus teaching that a true Jew is one in whom there is no guile: So Jesus did not villify the Israelites. Of course He did point out their cases of rebellion. But the Old Testament prophets already did plenty of that and you don't charge them with "villifying" the Jews. You haven't demonstrated that to me.Besides Jesus called some participants in His own Christian church in Revelation "dead, having left [their] first love, lukewarm, poor, wretched, naked, [needing] eyesalve (to clear the blindness away from their eyes), having in her the deep things of Satan, etc.These are severe rebukes from Christ toward His own disciples.
Have you never read the seven letters to the seven churches which are in Asia in Revelation 2 and 3? You didn't notice how strongly Christ rebukes His own church?Shame on you for you bias. There is enough ground there for you to charge Jesus with "villifying" the Christian church if you applied the same faulty logic. The death of Christ is in a unique class not like the death of any other human whether Jew or Gentile.That the death of many other Jews is not mentioned in the New Testament I don't think is defensible. Reference to the death for noble and ignoble reasons are both mentioned.However, the eternal redemption accomplished in the death of a sinless "Lamb of God" for the sins of the world, is in an entirely different catagory than all the other deaths people throughout history. The comparison cannot be made between the two on all points.This is the truth which you claim to be seeking. Please quote for me two or three of these "grotesque distortions".Please include both chapter and verses. Partially accurate you are in terms of the Jews handing Him over to the Romans.The signs placed above His head on the cross were in Latin, Hebrew, and Greek (John 19:20). I think the significance of this is that the whole religious world and political world and social world was against Christ. All three realms of society were responsible for persecuting Him. The murders of Christiandom are a horrendous and tragic fact of history. The religious establishment of Roman Catholicism was vicious against the Jews. This is true. However, it is also true that at the same time they were viciously persecuting true disciples of Christ.Fox's Book of Martyrs reveals the the Roman Catholic Church killed more Christians than the Roman Empire did.The man who translated the Bible into English, Tyndale, was burnt at the stake. Countless others were tortured as in the Inquisition.If you talk about the persecutions of Christiandom you have to be objective and realize that the RCC tortured and murdered the true disciples of Jesus.Why did they not spare those confessing Christ as Lord and only focus on the Jews? This fact that they included Christians in their persecutions proves that you cannot blame the Gospel of Jesus for being responsible for these crimes. Patently false. I already told you that the RCC killed, I don't know, how many true believers in Christ.You claim to be searching for the truth. But I think you want the facts skewed according to your biases.Until you objectively acknowledge that both the Roman Empire and the Roman Catholic Church launched terrible persecutions against disciples of Jesus Christ as well as Jews, I don't think I will ever be impressed by your sincereity to really find the truth in history or in the Bible.That's all I have time for today. But rather than appeal to our emotions ever more and more strongly, let's see some admission of historical objectivity on your part.This prediction of Jesus to His disciples was made true under Roman and the Roman Catholic Church: Whether at the hands of the opposing Jews or at the hands of the new religious establishment Christianity - the persecution of true believers in Christ is because the persecutors have not known the Father nor known Christ the Son.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

The fact that God calls all the ends of the earth to turn to Him to be saved vindicates Judaism rather than negates it. For God had told Abraham that through the called race God would bless all the families of the earth." ... and in you [Abram] all the families of the earth will be blessed" (Genesis 12:3) So God expressing His desire to bless all those from the ends of the earth confirms the Abrahamic race rather than underminds it. Do you consider that you are doing a good job of vindicating Judaism artificially restricting Isaiah 45:22?Moses called God "the God of the spirits of all flesh" (Numbers 27:16; 16:22)When Zechariah speaks of the Creator the burden of the world for Israel is that God created the spirit of all mankind within man:"The burden of the word of Jehovah concerning Israel. Thus declares Jehovah, who stretches forth the heavens and lays the foundation of the earth and forms the spirit of man within him" (Zech 12:1)All man was created with an indwelling human spirit in order to contact God the Eternal Spirit. So why should not God call to all the ends of the earth to look to Him to be saved?Though Isaiah God also predicts that all flesh shall come and worship before Him:"For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I make, Remain before Me, declares Jehovah, So will your seed and your name remain, and from new moon to new moon and from Sabbath to Sabbath ALL FLESH will come to boe down before Me, says Jehovah .." (Isaiah 66:22,23)In the flood of Noah all flesh perished in judgement except the eight in the ark. Yet in Isaiah 66:23 "all flesh" will come to bow in worship before Jehovah. So how do you consider denying God's will for universal worship as a defense of Judaism?Again in Micah we see all the nations coming to learn to worship God: So you do a poor job to defend Judaism by denying the Scriptures of the Hebrew Bible that His salvation is extended to "many nations". You would have to explain what you mean by "passe".
Anyway, back to the Old Testament where you neglect many truths there.Sometimes when the Israelites were disobediant to Jehovah He had to remind them that He also dealt with other nations besides them. For example through Amos the prophet God reminds Israel that they are not the only people He delivered from bondage: Above God has to remind Israel that as He delivered them from the oppression of Egypt He also delivered the Philistines our from Capthor and Aeam from Kir. They should not be highminded for Israel is like the children of the Cushites whom God has also dealt with.We also have one entire book dedicated to the subject of God's reluctance to judge a Gentile nation. That is the book of Jonah. So if you really wanted to reveal the true nature of Judaism you would not neglect these prophetic utterances about the nations. I don't know what you mean by this. However, The first coming of the Messiah was not a third party report. The first Christian disciples were Jews. I don't have time to address every rant of yours. One thing it has to do with the Gospel is that Jesus taught the same thing.The one thousand year millennial kingdom before the age of eternity, will be the span of time in which many Messianic promises will be realized world wide.His promises to Israel will stand. If you didn't study the New Testament carefully then you would be ignorant of this - Revelation 20 says that there are 1000 years before the age of the new heaven and the new earth. At that time Jesus will reign from Jerusalem and Israel will be capital of the world.I think I will stop here. You need to be more familiar with both the Old and the New Testaments. Your arguments do not stand well.Maybe I'll look at your other issues latter.

You are evading the challenge I put to you. I told you to submit your teaching passages from the New Testament that are anti- Jewish.Now if you can't do that then admit it. Where? Quote it. Where's the teaching in the New Testament instructing Christians to persecute Jews?Quote me the teaching. Where is the teaching of Jesus to convert by force?Quote me the teachings if you wish to blame this behavior on the teaching of the New Testament? Where is this written disdain for the Jews? Quote me a few examples of the Gospel writers writing a basic disdain for the Jews. Of course he has that right. And he has that right also to believe. The first disciples of Jesus were Jews who availed themselves of the right. And with the exception of Luke, all the other authors of the New Testament were JEWISH.Show me then these disdain for the Jews in these Jewish authors of the New Testament. They believed in God. They did not believe in the incarnation.Regardless, where is this villifying written in the Gospels? Quote it.Have you read the prophets Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Amos, etc. ? Can you show me passages in the New Testament that are as harsh in reprimand towards the Jews as many of these prophets spoke?What gospel or epistle speaks as strongly against the disobedient as Deutoronomy chapter 28? There curse after curse after curse after curse is threatened towards to disobedient Israelites. See Deut. 18:15-68.That portion of the Hebrew Bible contains 54 consecutive verses specifying what curses will overtake the Israelites for their disobedience to the Law of Moses. Show me 54 consecutive verses anywhere in the New Testament that are equal to Deut. 28:15-68 negative warnings directed towards the Jews.And if you can't do it be honest enough to admit that you can't. That's your opinion. And many past and present days Jews would not agree with you. God wanted man to be divine from the beginning. That is why He placed the created man before the tree of life in Genesis.It is God's eternal purpose that man would be divinized. So a divine man is a NORMAL man.You're ignorant of the Bible. You want to talk of racism?Why did this Jewish Rabbi write this about the descendents of Ham?
The passage comes from Sanhedrin 108b attributed to Tanhuma Noah 13,15: Some Jewish scholars therefore said the big lips, kinky hair, and buldging eyes, and enlarged penises are the curse upon Ethiopian black peoples because of what Ham did to his father Noah in Genesis 9.Do you get a whiff of racism here in these teachings? I am a black man. I don't blame the entire Judiasm because of these opinions of Jewish writers. Why should you blame the Gospel for every act of racism commited against the Jews?Midrash Rabbah-Genesis XXII: 6, translated reads "And Cain was very wroth [wayyihar] and his countenance fell: [His face] became like a firebrand [with the editorialo note, Blackened]."In other words the mark that God put on Cain was that his face became blackened. This amounts to condemning all black peoples of African and elsewhere as being associated with a curse that God placed upon Cain.You sense no racism here from some Jewish scholars?But unlike your hypocrisy, I do not hold all Judiasm responsible for these excesses of some Jewish teachers. I asked for quotes from the New Testament of which you have so far supplied none. I did not ask you to demonstrate anything from the Protocals.Where is your antisemitic New Testament teaching? There is a saying that when the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.You are on a one note ideology. You have mireable failed to demonstrate the inherent racism towards Jews, villifying them, in the New Testament.If you cannot give me NT samples to discuss with you then your argument is finished.I am not here defending the Pope or the Vatican or Europe. If you have samples of TEACHINGS in the New Testament which you feel are antisemitic then I would be eager to examine whether or not this is true, honestly.Until you come up with examples of TEACHING or otherwise antisemitic passages, you lose the case.At least I can claim just as much villifying racism towards African peoples from Judiasm in the same kind of way based on the writings I refer to above. But I do not, like you, charge Judaism as a whole for these few examples of negative references towards blacks. In the Hebrew Bible in Psalm 2 it says:"Serve Jehovah with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

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KISS THE SON ... Lest He be angry and you perish from the way, For His anger may suddenly be kindled. Blessed are all those who take refuge in Him. (Psalm 2:11,12 my emphasis) Here is God advizing the peoples to "kiss the Son". That is the Son of God - a divine man. How can He not be divine since He is God's Son?This is the Old Testament speaking rather than the New. You have no case. This is warning to worship and love a Divine Man - the Son of God. And it is the Old Testament writing.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

What whale ?

Are you going to give me your New Testament teachings quoted backing up your accusations of NT racism or not?I wish you would stop evading and offering additional points before pinpointing the "racist" teaching in the New Testament. The New Testamanet passages on Racism, IamJoseph!Don't you know which ones are usually sighted ? Must I help you onthat ? (Not that they are actually racist). I don't want to go on to other points until you follow though with your NT examples of racism.I will, however, check your dispute about Psalm 2.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I don't know what Matthew passages you are refering to.Can you be specific? Put out the charge and back it up with the quotation or reference to the chapter/s and verse/s.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

IamJoseph, please stop talking weak stuff off of the top of your head.Stop faking it. Find the passage and we'll examine it.