Divinity of Jesus

the earliest ecclesiastical writers are the ones who made statements about who wrote the gospels. When the christians were making collections of the NT writings, some would write a dialogue of who wrote the various books with a bit of an explanation of the contents of the writing.for instance, Papias of the 1st-2nd centuries wrote that Matthew wrote his gospel first, and that he wrote it in the hebrew language. (The Ante-Nicene Fathers)Then there is the Muratorian Fragment of the 2nd century. It the confirms that the book of Acts was written by Luke for a man named Theophilus. These early christians would have been fairly well aquainted with each other and they also were in close contact. If a letter was being delivered, it was done so by hand and the deliverer knew where the letter came from and who it came from. This is why these early christians knew who wrote the gospels.Prophecies are off topic here so i wont go into them...there was a prophecy thread a few months ago that I started

the man called Jesus 'good' yet he directed the man to God instead by saying "why do you call ME good?, no one is good except God"If Jesus were God, then surely he would have accepted the mans praise...instead he asked why he should be called good indicating that there was someone greater then he.If Jesus was God, then he was certainly in denial of it. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

you know that Jesus is also called the Prince of Peace, and yet nowhere that i know of are we told that the 'prince of peace' dwells in man.Jesus was called by many names, not only Jesus Christ. arch, means chief or principal, and there is only one archangel or chief angel mentioned in the Scriptures
First Thessalonians 4:16 talks about the archangel and his authority The LORD himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.look at the context of 1 Thessalonians very closely:
13Moreover, brothers, we do not want YOU to be ignorant concerning those who are sleeping [in death]; that YOU may not sorrow just as the rest also do who have no hope. 14For if our faith is that Jesus died and rose again, so, too, those who have fallen asleep [in death] through Jesus God will bring with him...those who are 'dead in union will christ' will rise again because of who? Vs 14 says "through Jesus"you dont think its signifigant that the archangel and Christ are mentioned in the same sentence interchangably?. And im sure you dont beleive that there could be another angel above Jesus...so they must be one and the same....they ARE one in the same.

you really believe that God or Jesus, pefect, powerful spirit beings, dwell inside use weak, imperfect sinful humans? How can God do so when its because of our sinful condition that we are alienated from him? thats not what the greek scriptures say. The greek language is your answer to the trinity...remember 'ho theon' and 'theon' in John 1:1? But we've been over that and you obviously have not taken it seriously. what scriptures are you using to come to this teaching?Maybe you can explain to me what you mean by 'dwells in man' and how he gets in?

Jaywill,before you go onto new subjects, please address the scriptures i posted

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First Thessalonians 4:16 talks about the archangel and his authority The LORD himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.

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look at the context of 1 Thessalonians very closely:
13 Moreover, brothers, we do not want YOU to be ignorant concerning those who are sleeping [in death]; that YOU may not sorrow just as the rest also do who have no hope. 14 For if our faith is that Jesus died and rose again, so, too, those who have fallen asleep [in death] through Jesus God will bring with him...

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those who are 'dead in union will christ' will rise again because of who? Vs 14 says "through Jesus"

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you dont think its signifigant that the archangel and Christ are mentioned in the same sentence interchangably?. And im sure you dont beleive that there could be another angel above Jesus...so they must be one and the same....they ARE one in the same

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Please address this before going on.thanks.

because it clearly says "the lord will descend with the voice of the archangle"we know the 'lord' is Jesusand here we are told that Jesus (the lord) will descend with the voice of the archangel. that is not in contention...the verse clearly identifies two distinct characters here...the Son of Man, and the other angel... they are clearly different so you agree that christ is the one who the resurrection is through, and he's accompanied by the voice of the archangle. Im sure you also agree that Jesus is the highest authority in the heavens and there is noone above him? Im sure you also know that it is Christ who leads the heavenly kingdom in to battle againsts Gods enemies.Did you know that Daniel identifies this 'Michael' as the one who fights on behalf of Gods people in the last days. Yet we are told in Revelation that it is 'The Son of Man' (Jesus) who rides forth on the white horse in behalf of Gods people ?Dan 12:1 And during that time Mi′cha‧el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of your people. ...
4And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end"Rev 7:1 And war broke out in heaven: Mi′cha‧el and his angels battled with the dragon,...10And I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down,"Throughout the whole bible, there are only two names associated with having authority over angels: Michael and Jesus Christ.If you believe they are two separate characters, why are we told that the Archangel is above all others? How can the archangel micheal be over Jesus? and how can Jesus be over the archangel when this very angel is supposed to be the 'cheif' angel of the heavens?do you see why it is reasonable to beleive that Michael is Jesus. Remember that Jesus was the name given him by his earthly parents...He could very well have had another name in the heavens. And interestingly "Micheal" means 'Who is like God'Jesus is very much 'like' his father...he even said "I and the father are one" & "If you have seen me, you have seen the father also"

is the voice not an intrinsic part of the person?i can understand the trumpet, but the 'voice' is not something you can pick up and put on the table.

no, the verse says that the 'Lord', that is Jesus will descend with the voice of the archangel Michael is the only one said to be the archangel, which means the chief angel. If he is different to Jesus, then he must be above Jesus in rank and authority. I dont beleive the scriptures indicate that Jesus is subject to anyone except God himself. This would surely make Jesus the 'cheif' one in the heavnes, not the Arch angel.You can visualize the text that way, or you can visualize it in the way i've mentioned. Either way, you'd need to be able to explain who the archangle Micheal is and why he is in the highest postion in the heavens.

Hi John
you said that God, Jesus and the Spirit are all equal and are all One.Yet you used a spripture which shows that Jesus is subjected to God.

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28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

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Can you clarify if Jesus is subject to God or if they are equal? Im having a hard time understanding this.

Hi jaywill,what are the angels of heaven?

thankyou jaywill,the reason why i asked the question was because i wanted to know how you understood 'angel'the words used in Hebrew mal'akh' and the Greek ag'ge.los literally mean "messenger" and the bible makes a distinction between human messengers and spirit messengers by calling the spirit messengers "angels"Using that definition, would it be wrong to call Jesus a 'messenger'?the angles/messengers are also called 'sons' according to Psalm 38:7"When the morning stars joyfully cried out together,
And all the sons of God began shouting in applause"so now they are both messengers & sons. Why is it unreasonable to believe that Jesus was a messenger and a son?Now of course I believe he is also the 'only begotten son' which makes him above all other spirit sons. What is your understanding of 'only begotten' How do you understand that?

Hi Jaywill,

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"This Angel, as well as the One in 8:3, 0:1, and 18:1, is Christ. In the Old Testament, Christ was called "the Angel of Jehovah"; that Angel was God Himself (Gen. 22:11-12; Exo. 3:2-6; Judg. 6:11-24; Zech. 1:11-12; 2:8-11; 3:1-7). Here in the New Testament He is again referred to as an Angel (a messenger). The expression [another Angel] indicates that Christ is not a common angel but a special Angel sent by God."

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this is confusing me...how can Jesus be the "Angel of Jehovah" and "God Himself" at the same time?? Unless he can be an angle of Jehovah and 'A' god.
Also how can he be "God Himself" but also a 'Special Angel SENT by God"
Do you realise this is really implying 2 separate individuals?.Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

well i have to commend you for your faith in something that is seemingly impossible to comprehend or even explain.that would kind of mean that Jesus could not really have died...if they cannot be separated, then death for Jesus must not have occured the way the writers say it did. What do you think is the explaination for the death of christ? Did he actually die? i apologise if that has been the result of my questions, it certainly wasnt my intention. Personally, i beleive that you can't answer those questions, not becuase you are 'dumb' but because your theology has changed the simple truths in the biblesuch Jesus is the 'son' of God and not God himselfand because your theology teaches that Jesus is a part of a trinity (something introduced in later centuries and not a teaching of the apostles or Jesus) then the whole bible is very difficult to understand. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

thanks for your response jaywill,i have to highlight Revelation 1 though, you mention that Jesus is the 'alpha and the omega' yet revelation says that Jehovah is the alpha and omega.And if you look at the verses in context, you can see that Jehovah and Jesus are distinct individuals

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Revelation 1:5and from Jesus Christ, the Faithful Witness, The firstborn from the dead, and The Ruler of the kings of the earth. To him that loves us and that loosed us from our sins by means of his (Jesus) own blood

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6and he (Jesus) made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father (Jehovah) yes, to him (Jehovah) be the glory and the might forever. Amen.

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7Look! He (Jesus) is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. Yes, Amen.

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8I am the Al′pha and the O‧me′ga, says Jehovah God, the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.

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9I John, YOUR brother and a sharer with YOU in the tribulation and kingdom and endurance in company with Jesus, came to be in the isle that is called Pat′mos for speaking about God and bearing witness to Jesus

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i'll have to agree to disagree on the jehovah/jesus combinationWho is this proverb written about? Who did Jehovah produce as the beginning of his creative works? And who is the 'master worker' of God Jehovah?

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Proverbs 8:22Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. 24When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. 25Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains, 26when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land. 27When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, 28when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, 29when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, 30then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, 31being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men

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This is an important scripture in understanding the identity of Jeuss and Jehovah. As you can see, 2 individuals are spoken of here. Jehovah produced another being like himself and this being came to be beside God as a 'master worker' and the Jehovah had a special fondness for this one. It is two individuals and its inline with how Jesus was explained by the apostles.

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John1:1 1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2This one was in [the] beginning with God. 3All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.

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this verse is obviously based on the greek reading whereby the definite article is in place as it is in the original language. It clearly shows that 'the word' was with 'God' and he was a 'god' and the creation came into existence thru him.do you see that by separating Jesus and Jehovah, there is no downplaying of Jesus position or role in Gods purposes. Jesus was the masterworker to whom Jehovah was 'especiallally fond of from the earliest times, before the founding of the earth.He really is a mighty god and his position is above all other angels. Separating Jehovah and Jesus into their distinct identities does not detract from this in the slightest. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.