Divinity of Jesus

pagan gods were grouped in threes well before Christianity began. From as far back as ancient Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity came in the form of Osiris, Isis, and Horus. And Indian religions have the triune god Brahma, Siva, and VisnuThe trinity doctrine developed in christianity well after it was established. The important thing to know about its development is that it didnt come from the bible writers, nor did it come from Jesus and none of the Hebrew writers presented the idea of a triune God either.It was first instituted as doctrine in the middle of the 3rd century...so its not really a bible teaching.

quote:

---

The Encyclopdia Britannica (1976 edition) states: "From the middle of the 2nd century AD, Christians who had some training in Greek philosophy began to feel the need to express their faith in its terms, both for their own intellectual satisfaction and in order to convert educated pagans. The philosophy that suited them best was Platonism."

​

The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge points out:

​

"Many of the early Christians, in turn, found peculiar attractions in the doctrines of Plato, and employed them as weapons for the defense and extension of Christianity, or cast the truths of Christianity in a Platonic mold. The doctrines of the Logos [Greek for "the Word"] and the Trinity received their shape from Greek Fathers, who, if not trained in the schools, were much influenced, directly or indirectly, by the Platonic philosophy, particularly in its Jewish-Alexandrian form."

---

the verses you quote here in msg 236 do nothing to support the trinity.vs 32 'this Jesus God raised up' - two individualsvs 33 'having received from the Father the promise' - If jesus was the father, how could he receive anything if he already owned it? He couldnt so again we are seeing two separate individuals.35 'the Lord said to my Lord, sit at my right hand' - again there are two Lords, not one. Jesus didnt say to himself 'sit at my right hand'. Again there are two separate individuals36. 'God has made him both Lord and Christ' - Jesus didnt make himself Lord, God made him Lord. Therefore again two separate individuals.Jesus and God are separate as these scriptures show. They are not one in the same.

you may not realise it, but the concept of the trinity became heated debate in the 2/3rd centuries and it caused a huge split in the early church.Those who promoted the trinity doctrine created a huge rift in the early church that has never been mended.Now the question is, if the idea of the trinity was always apart of christian teaching, why would it cause such a rift between members of the chruch?the fact is it was a new idea, completely foreign to what was instituted. Christians who were loyal to christ and his apostles teachings refused to accept it.Neander was a well respected German ecclesiastical historian and trinitarian of the 16th century and wrote: "Some of our theologians regard the holy spirit simply as a mode of divine operation; others as a creature of God; others as God himself; others again, say that they know not which of the opinions to accept from their reverence for Holy Writ, which says nothing upon the subject."I think Neander shows that by his day, it was still an issue and not everyone agreed with each other.

quote:

---

Oxford University Professor J.N.D. Kelly writes: "During the first three centuries of its existence, the Christian Church had first to emerge from the [monotheistic] Jewish environment that had cradled it and then come to terms with the predominantly Hellenistic (Greek) culture surrounding it."
Then, speaking of early teachers who later became known as church fathers, Professor Kelly writes: "Most of them exploited current philosophical conceptions...They have been accused of Hellenizing Christianity (making it Greek in form and method), but they were in fact attempting to formulate it in intellectual categories congenial [suited] to their age. In a real sense they were the first Christian theologians."

---

kelly shows how these early "theologians" adapted primitive Bible-based Christianity to greek philosophical ideas.Edited by Peg, : No reason given.Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

this is precisely what the bible teaches.think about it. jesus was a Jew bought up on the Hebrew scriptures. Its from these very scritpures where the basis of his teachings were from.The Hebrew scriptures present a monotheistic God, he had his own distinct name, he was presented as the Almighty Creator who was to be worshiped as 'one' God above all others.This is the same God that Jesus taught his followers to pray to and he called him 'OUR FATHER'. He didnt say 'YOUR' father, so as not to include himself in the admonition, but Jesus clearly included himself when he said 'OUR' Father. This shows that Jesus viewed God as his own father, not as himself, but as a distinct and greater being them himself.Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

It is similar yes. However Lucifer is not actually referng to satan. The name only occurs once in the bible at Isaiah 14:12. The hebrew word translated as Lucifer in the KJV literllay means "shining one," an its occurance is said to be a "proverbial saying against the king of Babylon."
What shows that the description is given to a man and not to a spirit creature is seen by the statement: "Down to Sheol you will be brought."
Now Sheol is the common grave of mankind, its not a place where spirits would ever be buried for they have no physical body.Satan is not named in the bible, however he was most definitely one of Jesus brothers, as are the rest of the angelic spirits. I wouldnt say they are not true believers. Its more a question of accurate knowledge.God expects all of us to make sure our beliefs are accurate and he expects us to study these things for ourselves. If we blindly go along to church and never question anything then how do we know that what we are being taught is the truth?When you look at the history of the church there are many inconsistencies to be found and there is only one reason why they dont recognize them...they dont read the bible. The church does not teach the bible, its more focused on its own doctrines and traditions.Its no different today then when the relgious leaders of Jesus day were teaching the Oral laws rather then the Mosaic laws. But we each have a responsibility to make sure our church is teaching the right thing...and if its not, get out. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

no.Their writings always spoke of Jesus and God as separate individuals. We know that God has his own distinct name (Jehovah) and Jesus was always called his 'Son'If you are trying to teach that God and Jesus are one in the same, and are on the same level, and are of the same essence, why would you call one the Father and one the Son?Take the trinity teaching away for a moment and think about that...what do you think the 'Son' and 'Father' implies in terms of the relationship between the two?What does it tell you about the position & authority, relative to each other? thats probably because the church's have conditioned us to believe this. They are the authority and only they know how to explain the unexplainable.Have you ever wondered why its called the great 'mystery'?Its a mystery because the bible does not explain it. The church has twisted a few scriptures to make them appear that they are explaining the trinity but when you examine them closely, and take other scriptures into account, it becomes clear that they do not mean what the church claims they mean.

Indeed, Jesus and the Father were one...'In Purpose'However, in the argument that followed between Jesus and the Jews he proved that he had by no means said that he was God. Jesus said atJohn 10:36 "I said, I am the Son of God."The jews cracked it big time with him becuase he said he was from the 'realms above', which he was. He was a powerful angelic son of God in heaven and was sent to the earth to perform a duty.So when the jews heard him say he was not from this world, they assumed he was saying that he was a god of some sort. He corrected them by saying "I said, I am the Son of God"He never claimed to be God. Read this carefully - John 8:18-27...

quote:

---

19Therefore they went on to say to him: "Where is your Father?" Jesus answered: "YOU know neither me nor my Father. If YOU did know me, YOU would know my Father also." ...
21Hence he said to them again: "I am going away, and YOU will look for me, and yet YOU will die in YOUR sin. Where I am going YOU cannot come."
22Therefore the Jews began to say: "He will not kill himself, will he? Because he says, ‘Where I am going YOU cannot come.’"

​

23So he went on to say to them: "YOU are from the realms below (earth); I am from the realms above (heaven). YOU are from this world; I am not from this world. 24Therefore I said to YOU, YOU will die in YOUR sins. For if YOU do not believe that I am [he], YOU will die in YOUR sins."

​

(note jesus is becoming tired of them by this stage, he's performed miracles and raised the dead as an evidence of who he was, the messiah, and yet they still question him about who he is)

​

25Therefore they began to say to him: "Who are you?" Jesus said to them: "Why am I even speaking to YOU at all? 26I have many things to speak concerning YOU and to pass judgment upon. As a matter of fact, he that sent me is true, and the very things I heard from him I am speaking in the world."

​

27They did not grasp that he was talking to them about the Father

---

does this sound like a man who claimed to be God?

He was more then human, he existed as an angelic son of God beforehandHe had a prehuman existence. The apostles came to understand this. Paul described Jesus as "the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation." (Colossians 1:15)Also John acknowledged his prehuman role in creation: "All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence." (John 1:3)Its also why John said that Jesus was 'divine' because he was more then just a human, he came from the heavens and when he had completed his job, he returned there as a powerful spirit again.

how do you know that its not the translator who got it wrong in John1:1?Do you know much about Koine greek? I recently discussed this verse in another thread with Jaywill in the Christian Laws thread (Page 14 Msg 205).I'll give you some translators who wrote it differently

quote:

---

and the word was a god
The New Testament, in An Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text, London. 1808

​

and a god was the Word
The Emphatic Diaglott (J21, interlinear reading), by Benjamin Wilson, New York and London.1864

​

and the Word was divine
The BibleAn American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed, Chicago.1935

​

and the Word was a god
New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures,
Brooklyn. WT Society 1950

​

and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word
Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Siegfried Schulz,Gttingen, Germany.1975

​

and godlike sort was the Logos
Das Evangelium nach Johannes,by Johannes Schneider,Berlin.1978

​

and a god was the Logos
Das Evangelium nach Johannes,by Jrgen Becker, Wrzburg, Germany.1979
*******************************************

​

Now in john 1:1 the literal verse reads (definite article HO & TON)

​

1.EN_____ARKHEI____ __EN______HO___ __LOGOS,___KAI__ _HO_ _LOGOS
2.IN___BEGINNING ____WAS_____ THE____ WORD,___ AND__ _THE__ _WORD

​

3.EN_____PROS___TON_THN,__________KAI____THS___EN___HO__ _LOGOS.
4.WAS____WITH___THE_GOD,__________AND____GOD___WAS__THE_ _WORD.

​

5.HOUTOS_____EN_______EN_____ARKHEI _____PROS____ TON_THN.
6.THIS ______WAS_____IN_____BEGINNING____WITH_____THE_GOD.

​

Notice in line 3. the word was with 'TON THN' which means the word was with THE GOD.

​

Notice in line 4. 'and God was the word'

​

there is a difference between the occurrence of 'THE GOD' in line 3. The fact that John used the definite article in line 3 shows that 'THE GOD' is referring to a specific individual. But in line 4 when he says that 'the word was god' he does not include a definite article before god, which means the word 'god' in line 4 is an adjective rather then a noun. Its a descriptive word identifying the nature of Jesus.

---

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

the beauty of the bible is that there are no tricks or mysteries to it.John repeatedly describes Jesus as the only-begotten Son of God. He says that as the Logos, or Word, "this one was in the beginning with God," even "before the world was." and also as you say, all things "came into existence thru him and for him and without him nothing came into existence"'Only begotten' means that Jesus was the only direct creation, of any other living being, by God himself. All other 'sons' were created by Jesus, not God...this is why Jesus is called the 'only begotten son'. He was the only living being directly created by God.Now look at what Proverbs says

quote:

---

Proverbs 8:22"Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. ...27When he prepared the heavens I was there...30then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, 31being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men.

---

The one speaking here is 'The Word' or the 'Logos' whom John identifies as Jesus.
Jesus was with God in the beginning and all things came into existence by him because he became 'the master worker'What this means is that the Jesus was working along side his Father in the creation. Jesus was like an apprentice under his Fathers guidance and God taught Jesus and directed him in what and how to create.This is why Jesus was the perfect one to send as the savior because, as proverbs says 'i was especially fond of the sons of man'.See, no tricks, no mysteries.
God created a being in his likeness, then that one created all other things. He came to earth to perform a sacred duty, then he returned to be at his fathers right hand again awaiting further direction.

Yes, he is a lesser god. He is not God Almighty.
The word god in hebrew actually means 'mighty one' so if you think of the power that angels have, you would have to agree that they are mighty ones....gods. But again they are not the 'Almighty God'And remember that even satan is called a god, im sure you wouldnt conclude that he is also one in the same witb Jesus and Jehovah.This just shows that being called a 'god' does not mean that one has to be the Almighty God. Just as we have stations and ranks among people on earth, so do the Angels have stations and ranks among them. Jesus is said the be the foremost 'cheif' of all the angels. But never is he spoken of as having any authority over the 'Almighty God'rather it is Jesus who is 'subject' to that one. 1Corintians 15:28 "But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone."The purpose of Jesus coming is to eventually bring the human race back into harmony with God. Right now we are alienated, but there will come a time in the future when Jesus role will come to is completion and all humans will again be reconciled to God again as perfect humans under Gods authority.

well the holy spirit is not a person, its Gods power or force. Its what he uses to accomplish things.
the greek word pneu`ma, translated as 'spirit' means "breathe" or "blow" (Hebrew ru`ach) And it can also mean wind; the vital force in living creatures or one's spirit.Now when it comes from God, then it can be said to be 'holy' because God is holy.In the bible, the majority of occurrences of ru'ach and pneu'ma relate to God's spirit or his active force...for instance in Genesis 1:2 "the spirit of God [ru'ach] was moving over the face of the waters." KJVSo in this sense, Gods spirit is his 'power' Although it can be used by God in however he chooses. It was this power that he gave to Jesus to perform miracles for instance.
It was also this power that 'filled' the apostles with understanding and the ability to speak in different languages/tongues at Pentecost. The spirit filled the room and gave them powers they did not previously have.So holy spirit is the force from God that allows his purpose to be fulfilled.

its monotheistic and polytheistic!Now i'm being tricky lolOk, here it is....It is monotheistic with regard to 'worship' because we are told to only worship the One God, the Almighty, The Creator.but its polytheisitic in the sense that it acknowledges that there are other 'gods'.... such as Jesus, Angels, Satan, Demons.... in relation to us, these are all gods (mighty ones). But they are not to be worshiped the same way we worship the Almighty God.Did you read what happened to the Apostle John when he fell down at the feet of the Angel who was giving him the visions of revelation....Revelation 19:9And he tells me... "These are the true sayings of God." 10At that I fell down before his feet to worship him. But he tells me: "Be careful! Do not do that! All I am is a fellow slave of you and of your brothers who have the work of witnessing to Jesus. Worship God!"So the Angel who gave John the revelation, openly says that he was not to be worshiped, nor did he say that Jesus was to be worshiped....he says 'Worship God'

sorry i missed this Yes he did and thats why God transferred his life to the womb of mary.I do find it strange that most people readily accept the idea that the all powerful Creator, could bundle himself up, with all the power he possesses, into a tiny human embryo and die and resurrect himself,yet too hard to believe that the life of one of his spirit children could be transfered to the womb of a woman to be born as a human.

In saying that Satan is one of Jesus brothers, I should make clear what i mean by that.Look at this verse from Ezekiel 28:11-19 (this is a prophecy about the destruction of the king of Tyre if you read it in full, but some aspects of this prophecy shed light on an angel/cherub who went down the wrong path)

quote:

---

. 13In E′den, the garden of God, you proved to be. Every precious stone was your covering, ruby, topaz and jasper; chrys′olite, onyx and jade; sapphire, turquoise and emerald; and of gold was the workmanship of your settings and your sockets in you. In the day of your being created they were made ready. 14You are the anointed cherub that is covering, and I have set you. On the holy mountain of God you proved to be. In the midst of fiery stones you walked about. 15You were faultless in your ways from the day of your being created until unrighteousness was found in you.

​

16'Because of the abundance of your sales goods they filled the midst of you with violence, and you began to sin. And I shall put you as profane out of the mountain of God, and I shall destroy you, O cherub that is covering, from the midst of the fiery stones.

​

17'Your heart became haughty because of your beauty. You brought your wisdom to ruin on account of your beaming splendor. Onto the earth I will throw you. Before kings I will set you, [for them] to look upon you.

---

So the bible shows that Satan was originally an angel who used his free will to oppose God. He was one of the foremost angels, a cherub, and seeing he was an angel, he was a brother of Jesus and a son of God.....he is also a brother of all the other angels.When war occurred in heaven and Satan was cast out, Revelation 12:10 says: "And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: 'Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! And they conquered him ...On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them!"in this verse, all the angelic hosts are called 'brothers'
this means that Satan was one of those brothers before he became an opposer of God. Im not suggesting that Satan is still viewed as a brother of Christ now, but he certainly was before he sinned.and yes, i am a JW.