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Author Topic:   Question on how Evolution works to produce new characteristics
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 67 of 104 (564490)
06-10-2010 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Europa
06-10-2010 6:22 PM


Evidence to say the environment of 'living fossils' did not change much?
Pick one in particular, and we'll discuss it.
Bear in mind that the term "living fossil" does not imply prolonged morphological stasis, which is what you actually want to talk about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Europa, posted 06-10-2010 6:22 PM Europa has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Europa, posted 06-10-2010 6:49 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 68 of 104 (564492)
06-10-2010 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Europa
06-10-2010 6:15 PM


Do you guys honestly believe that the environment can remain similar for an organism for 200 million years? I agree that the organism can also move to what environment that suits him. So the environment of an organism is not on a fixed piece of land area.
Still, to believe that an organism managed to live in an unchanging environment for 200 million years, while the others could not do it, is so counter intuitive for me.
However, the fact is that the evidence shows that some types of organism have remained relatively unchanged (at least morphologically) over long periods of time without going extinct. And this means that there must, throughout that period, always have been some environment that was within their tolerance, otherwise they would have gone extinct, wouldn't they?
Now that is logic. The fact that stromatolites (for example) have survived for hundreds of millions of years does in fact prove that for hundreds of millions of years there must have been, at any particular time in this interval, some place on Earth in which stromatolites could survive.
So yes, I "honestly believe" that it is possible, because the evidence shows that it has actually happened; and things that happen are of course possible.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Europa, posted 06-10-2010 6:15 PM Europa has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 73 of 104 (564508)
06-10-2010 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Europa
06-10-2010 6:49 PM


Well doctor Adequate, according to Katsuhiko Yoshida,
"Living fossils are taxonomic groups surviving for a long time without any remarkable morphological change." Don't know why you want to redefine what a living fossil is.
But if you are going to take that as a definition of living fossil then a lot of things that people call living fossils aren't living fossils, and you should bear this in mind when selecting your example.
Since you insist, please tell me how the cockroach managed to remain a cockroach for hundreds of millions of years.
"The" cockroach?
From WP:
These earliest cockroach-like fossils ("Blattopterans" or "roachids") are from the Carboniferous period between 354—295 million years ago. However, these fossils differ from modern cockroaches in having long external ovipositors and are the ancestors of mantises as well as modern cockroaches. The first fossils of modern cockroaches with internal ovipositors appear in the early Cretaceous ... Current evidence strongly suggests that termites have evolved directly from true cockroaches, and many authors now consider termites to be an epifamily of cockroaches, as Blattaria excluding Isoptera is not a monophyletic group.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Europa, posted 06-10-2010 6:49 PM Europa has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Europa, posted 06-10-2010 7:26 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 74 of 104 (564510)
06-10-2010 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Europa
06-10-2010 7:02 PM


The one that survived without much morphological change, for the longest duration.
And which is that, and how long was the duration?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Europa, posted 06-10-2010 7:02 PM Europa has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Europa, posted 06-10-2010 7:23 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 77 of 104 (564513)
06-10-2010 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Europa
06-10-2010 6:58 PM


Now, now, now. doctor.
You started with an explanation.
Then you called it logic.
And in the end you are calling it evidence.
Huntard told me sense [and probably logic too] is not good enough. We need evidence.
But a mere label of 'evidence' is not enough for me. If it is so, you can label what i called logic also as evidence.
I don't see the relation that any of that bears to what I actually posted.
I would still call what you explained an explanation. That explanation unfortunately, for me, is so counter intuitive. When I say it is counter intuitive, you say it is an argument from incredulity. That is what lead me to ask for evidence. Where is the evidence that the environment did not change?
I explained that.
If a species has survived for x million years, then it is necessarily the case that for x million years there has been some environmental niche in which that species could survive. Otherwise it would not have done so.
Hence, while the environment of the species may have changed somewhat, it must always have been within the limits of what that species could survive without undergoing (significant, morphological) evolutionary change. Otherwise the species would be extinct.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Europa, posted 06-10-2010 6:58 PM Europa has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Europa, posted 06-10-2010 7:39 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 79 of 104 (564516)
06-10-2010 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Europa
06-10-2010 7:26 PM


Lets stick to standard definitions.
I don't object to the definition. My point is that in that case you should be cautious about saying that something is a "living fossil", because people call a lot of things "living fossils" which do not fit that definition --- so although you read somewhere that something is a "living fossil", it probably isn't a "living fossil" by Yoshida's definition.
So, after I read this, I am asked to believe that the cockroaches are cockroaches even after 295 - 354 million years because the environment did not change for them?
No, not at all. My point is that cockroaches have in fact evolved. Proto-cockroaches evolved into cockroaches (and mantises); more modern cockroaches evolved into termites; some cockroaches still look fairly roachy, but they are not identical with Cretaceous species.
I know of no cockroach species which would count as a "living fossil", and presumably nor do you or you'd have named one.

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 Message 76 by Europa, posted 06-10-2010 7:26 PM Europa has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 80 of 104 (564518)
06-10-2010 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Europa
06-10-2010 7:39 PM


But, doctor, this is not EVIDENCE.
This is an EXPLANATION.
Au contraire --- it is evidence, but it isn't an explanation.
By analogy, consider the fact that I am still alive at 36. This is compelling evidence that for the last 36 years no-one has ever killed me. It does not explain why no-one has done so. But it is certainly evidence that no-one actually has.
In the same way, the fact that a species has not gone extinct is unarguable evidence that since it first arose there has always been some environment somewhere that it could live in. It does not, however, explain why this should have been so.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Europa, posted 06-10-2010 7:39 PM Europa has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Europa, posted 06-11-2010 2:02 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 82 of 104 (564521)
06-10-2010 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Europa
06-10-2010 7:23 PM


This is info can be researched but this is not important.
Yes it is. If you wish to produce a cockroach species as an example of a prolonged morphological stasis, then the question of how long it has stayed the same is very important --- it is important to the question of whether it is an example of prolonged morphological stasis.
You are evading my question.
You're evading even asking the question. You say you want to talk about the roach species which has been stable for longest, but you won't say which one that is.
The cockroach has been around for more than 300 million years.
First, there is no such thing as "the" cockroach. You might as well say that "the" mammal has been around for 200 million years.
Secondly, as you would know if you'd bothered to read my post, the order Blattaria has not been around for that long. That's when the Blattopterans flourished --- a group which differed morphologically from all modern cockroaches.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Europa, posted 06-10-2010 7:23 PM Europa has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 85 of 104 (564581)
06-11-2010 2:28 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Europa
06-11-2010 2:02 AM


Unarguable evidence?
It is not even evidence.
I will tell you why.
Suppose Zeus abducted an organism 300 million years ago. He froze it in one of his freezers in Alpha Centauri.
This takes special pleading to a whole new level.
If you're allowed that sort of excuse, then what constitutes evidence for anything?
Is there, for example, any evidence for the existence of giraffes? Of course, we think we can see them, but this could be an illusion planted in our minds by the Babylonian god Marduk using his magic brainwashing ray.
But I don't think that this sort of fantasy really deprives evidence of its evidential value. Nor, I think, do you.
To quote Hume:
Whether your scepticism be as absolute and sincere as you pretend, we shall learn by and by, when the company breaks up: we shall then see, whether you go out at the door or the window; and whether you really doubt if your body has gravity, or can be injured by its fall; according to popular opinion, derived from our fallacious senses, and more fallacious experience.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Europa, posted 06-11-2010 2:02 AM Europa has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Europa, posted 06-11-2010 2:38 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 90 of 104 (564588)
06-11-2010 3:01 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Europa
06-11-2010 2:38 AM


My Zeus story is not true by any means.
Quite so. And yet you seem to think that the fact that you can imagine it deprives the facts of their evidential value.
Well, I'll ask you again --- according to that standard, what is there evidence for? Is there, for example, any evidence for the existence of giraffes? If so, what?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Europa, posted 06-11-2010 2:38 AM Europa has not replied

  
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