Abortion

As a woman, and in the minority here, I think, I believe I have something to contribute to this thread.I think abortion is not a good thing. I don't know an pro-choice people who think it is no big deal. It IS a big deal.I think that we need to get much more serious about preventing unwanted pregnancy in the first place instead of demonizing women who find themselves in the horrible position of having to choose.If they do have to choose, however, abortion needs to be safe, legal, and NOT a political issue.Part of the reason we have such a problem with unwanted pregnancy is because we are still in some kind of Puritain mindset when it comes to sex and birth control.We don't want to consider that little Johnny might be having sex with little Betty Ann, so we pretend they aren't, and we don't tell them about how people get pregnant and STD's, or what birth control options there are. Then, when Betty Ann is knocked up, Betty Ann, who was never prepared by her parents to be a resposible sexual being (because we just don't talk about these things) flakes out and pretends it isn't happening.In general, I am very mistrustful of Fundamentalist attitudes towards women; in particular, who gets to control a woman's body.I think it should be the woman, not the church and not the state.

I agree with the current law.The absolute sooner the better, of course.Also, if fetuses were considered human upon conception, then IUD's should be classified as abortive agents, because they prevent implantation.

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[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 02-21-2002]

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On the other hand I find it hard to rationalise aborting a human life because they are inconvenient.

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I am growing uncomfortable with the slightly strident, judgemental language which is beginning to creep into your posts.If the person having an abortion actually thinks of the "zef" as a mere inconvenience (and I am not convinced that this is true for many women), do you really want them to raise this child?How many unwanted children have you adopted, or were a foster parent for? Have you ever come close to doing something like this? Do you know any friends or aquaintences who have done this?I know of one couple who adopted a little girl...from Thailand. That's ONE. Every other married couple that I know in my generation is pretty much breeding like bunnies.The fact is, people don't want the children who are available for adoption right now, because they'd rather make their own.I am not saying that abortion is the answer. I think abortion is terrible. We need to make sex education and family planning much more a priority, and we need to educate and elevate the status of all women in our culture to full and equal, so girls will have solid senses of self-worth. We need to teach our boys to have much more respect for a woman's body as more that an object of his sexual desire. We need to stop "adultifying" and sexualizing images of children in advertizing and entertainment.I am just saying; who is going to raise all of those children if you force the mothers to carry them to term?

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Originally posted by mark24:
[b] How is that strident or judgemental? Most people get abortions because they are pregnant & don't want a baby, no? They have an abortion because it is inconvenient. I in no way say it is a flip decision. I was witness to this myself. It was an agonising decision that I am glad I never had to make, & my heart went out for her. But it was still, at the end of the day, a decision of convenience. If pointing this out is judgemental, then so be it.[/QUOTE]

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I think that "inconvenient" is too light a word, and is therefore implying that it is a flip descision. I don't think that most women struggle and agonize over a descision of "convenience".

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So, do you think it would be OK for the state to force women to carry all pregnancies to term?

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You also make it sould as though carrying and giving birth to a baby is a walk in the park for a woman, with no risk to her health or life.
Having an abortion is far less risky that carrying a pregnancy to term and delivering it.

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I ask you, in the woman you knew who had that abortion; did you offer to raise that child, or did anyone involved with her offer?

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[QUOTE]Whilst we are being critical of each other, the next time you avoid my question by posing your own, I'm going to call you Redstang, OK?

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Mark

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I don't think I avoided your question, and you actually didn't answer mine.

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Originally posted by leekim:
The key question to the debate on abortion is when one feels life begins. I think we can all agree on the premise that human life is sacred and every "civilized" nation has rules that punish and disallow the crime of murder. I personally feel that a human life begins at the moment of conception (ie sperm / egg) and therefore all life must be protected at and following this state of being. In order to be consistent and to not be intellectually dishonset one cannot say that rape, a genetic defect, etc. negates the aforementioned principle and therefore people can perform an abortion under those limitied scenarios. If you believe that life begins at a certain point in time, then that life must be protected regardless of the manner in which it came into existence (ie rape, consenual sex between a married couple, boyfriend / girlfriend, etc) because all human life (at least within the United States) is entitled to the basic rights and protections afforded by the Constitution and the laws of the States contained therein. Although it is a difficult point to determine for some, once one determines when "life begins" the other factors surrounding the "abortion debate" become trivial to me. Many renowed scientists and Doctors have given complete support to the principle that life begins at the moment of conception (and many are devout atheists) and they are ,therefore, strongly opposed to abortion in any form. Although I am "religious", one can certainly analyze this debate completely outside the realm of religious principles.

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I disagree that the key question is when life begins. I think the key question is what rights does the state have to control a woman's body.Did you know that most fertilized eggs do not result in pregancies because they never implant, and are therefore expelled during menstruation?To be consistent with your idea that life begins at conception and it all needs to be protected, we would need to protect this "life", no?Also, do you reccomend that we make IUD's illegal, because they prevent pregnancy by not allowing the fertilized egg to implant into the uterine wall?Should we protect ectopic pregnancies which will kill the mother if allowed to continue?What about a woman who's life is threatened by carrying a pregnancy to term and giving birth?Would you be willing to send doctors, nurses, and women to jail to serve life sentences for murder because they either performed, assisted in, or underwent, an abortion?Do you feel that the state has a right to force women to carry all pregnancies to term? Do you feel comfortable with the knowledge that, if the state were to regain this power, that many women would die, bleeding to death or dying from infections from back-alley, coathanger abortions?On a different note, there is no shortage of unwanted children who are already alive. If we increase their numbers singnificantly, who is going to raise them and pay for their educations, etc?Lastly, you seem to be saying that at the moment a sperm combines with egg, the rights of that "sperm + egg" supercedes that of the woman to control her own body. If you are a man (sorry, it's a safe assumption), what medical procedures and descisions that you make about yourself do you think the government should supercede your or your doctor's judgement? Would you allow the state to have control over any aspect of your fertility?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by leekim:
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by bretheweb:
[B]Howdy Lee,
//The key question to the debate on abortion is when one feels life begins.//
Not for me.
The key issue in this debate is about the governments attempted removal of a womans reproductive rights.
-----But one never gets to the issue of a woman's "reproductive rights" if you determine that life begins at the time of conception. Any rights a woman has are trumped by the "life" inside of her (the only time a woman should have a "choice" are in those very limited circumstances where a mother's life is at significant risk). If one determines that a "life" is truly inside her corpus at the moment of conception, than "reproductive rights" becomes a moot issue.[/QUOTE]You are a man, aren't you?Since when is any human in the US EVER required to set aside their rights in favor of another's rights??I understand that this is a relatively new concept when applied to women. After all, the term "marital rape" hasn't been in existence for very long. That doesn't mean that women weren't being raped by their husbands for thousands of years before this affront to their rights was recognized as such.

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-----It is more than compelling if you determine that a human life is within that mother. You allude here to the standard of strict scrutiny (compelling), and the governemnt certainly has a compelling governemntal interest in protecting the lives of its citizens (again assuming you accept my position that at conception life begins) even against the interests of their own mother.

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The constitution also mentions "liberty" as well as "life". How is the state promoting "liberty" if it forces all women to carry all pregnancies to term?

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Any constitutional scholar who is intellectually honest will concede that Roe v. Wade is an extremely weak decision and the Court refused to answer the very question that began my post "when does life begin?", (read the case) the critical issue to this debate.

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We will not go back to coathanger abortions. Making abortion illegal will not end abortion. It will only increase the number of unwanted children, abused and uneducated and underfed children (at risk for engaging in criminal behavior). It wall also increase the number of women who suffer and die from backalley procedures. It will also increase the number of infanticides.I wonder if you have considered coming at this problem from another direction. Have you ever considered working to make it less necessary? Educating children about sex and reproduction, and the many kinds of birth control which exist and responsibility, teaching boys to respect girls and girls to respect themselves, etc.?Safe, legal abortion is a sign of a society which treats women as full and equal citizens.I have to tell you that reading your posts makes me want to go write checks to NARAL and NOW.We will not go back.

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//Although it is a difficult point to determine for some, once one determines when "life begins" the other factors surrounding the "abortion debate" become trivial to me.//
It is unfortunate that you dont want to recognize the importance of the individual liberties of women intrinsic to this issue.
----Again this not a debate about "woman's rights" and I am not trying to negate them.

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Um, yes it is, and you just said that a women's rights are automatically negated at the moment a fertilized egg exists inside her.

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But, once one determines that an individual human life exists at the time a fertilized egg is within that mother, her rights become subjected to that other human life.

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Why? Why are the rights of the sperm + egg so much more valuable than a woman's rights that her rights are negated? You have not justified this statement; you have simply asserted it.This sounds like fetus worship to me.Allison

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[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 02-28-2002]

Did you know that the vast majority of pregnancies in underage girls are fathered by men 21 or older?Your message talked a lot about women and their responsibilities, but mention of men and their responsibilities was oddly missing.Not surprising...Making abortion illegal will not end abortion. It will just mean that only rich people will be able to obtain them, just like before abortion was legal in this country.Are you willing to send doctors, nurses and women to jail for life sentences? Are you willing to force women to carry pregnancies to term? What kind of reproductive descisions are you willing to let the government make concerning your body and your life?If we had excellent sex education in this country and provided safe, reliable contraception for free to anyone who asked for it, then your charge of girls and women being irresposible might have some merit. We only recently began collecting child support from deadbeat fathers in any meaningful way, too. You make the gravely incorrect assumption that everyone learns severything they need to about avoiding unwanted pregnancy before they are of sexual maturity. Most do not have anywhere near that kind of education or parental and community support.We do very little to realistically prevent unwanted pregnancies.I want there to never be another abortion, ever. We will get there by education and by dropping this punitive attitude towards women and girls and by education from a very early age, and by making contraception easily-obtainable and free to everyone.The Bible-thumpers who have this country by the balls want to impose their Puritain mores on everyone instead of doing what is practical and realistic and smart.