Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 121 (8774 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 07-28-2017 8:51 AM
366 online now:
Aussie, dronestar, JonF, NoNukes, PaulK, Percy (Admin), Vlad (7 members, 359 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Tom Larkin
Post Volume:
Total: 814,778 Year: 19,384/21,208 Month: 2,143/3,111 Week: 364/574 Day: 19/59 Hour: 2/2

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
678910
11
Author Topic:   Would Mary Have Been In Bethlehem?
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12873
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 151 of 156 (512188)
06-15-2009 7:17 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by ochaye
06-15-2009 4:55 AM


No, there's very little discussion of what Luke meant. There are many more posts like yours that assume that Luke meant some earlier census - but don't give any reason for it. I've asked before in this thread for reasons - and nobody seems to have any.

Luke refers to a census of Judaea held under Quirinius. We have a census of Judaea held in 6AD under Quirinius. Why should we assume that Luke meant some earlier census ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by ochaye, posted 06-15-2009 4:55 AM ochaye has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by kbertsche, posted 06-16-2009 7:45 PM PaulK has responded

    
kbertsche
Member
Posts: 1361
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 152 of 156 (512353)
06-16-2009 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by PaulK
06-15-2009 7:17 AM


quote:
Luke refers to a census of Judaea held under Quirinius. We have a census of Judaea held in 6AD under Quirinius. Why should we assume that Luke meant some earlier census ?

Do we have extra-biblical records of more than one census under Quirinius? Luke pointedly refers to the "first" census under Quirinius, implying that Quirinius held at least one later census. Why do you assume that the 6 AD census was the first one under Quirinius, and not the second or a later one?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by PaulK, posted 06-15-2009 7:17 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by PaulK, posted 06-17-2009 1:22 AM kbertsche has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12873
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 153 of 156 (512357)
06-17-2009 1:22 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by kbertsche
06-16-2009 7:45 PM


quote:

Do we have extra-biblical records of more than one census under Quirinius?

No. We don't have any independent records of ANY Roman census of Judaea prior to 6 AD, or any record of Quirinius holding the governorship of Syria (or any other position that Luke might have meant) prior to 6 AD.

quote:

Luke pointedly refers to the "first" census under Quirinius, implying that Quirinius held at least one later census.

I think that you are misreading it. I believe that Luke meant that it was the first Roman census of Judaea - which was held under Quirinius. Because Judaea was a nominally independent client state up until 6 AD when it was absorbed into the Roman Empire there would have been no earlier census. (And if there had been, Jospehus - who was very interested in the relationship between the Jews and the Romans - should have recorded it)

quote:

Why do you assume that the 6 AD census was the first one under Quirinius, and not the second or a later one?

I don't simply assume it. I conclude it, given that there are good reasons to reject the idea of any earlier Roman census (under any governor) - and no reason to place Quirinius as governor of Syria prior to 6 AD.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by kbertsche, posted 06-16-2009 7:45 PM kbertsche has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by kbertsche, posted 06-17-2009 10:02 AM PaulK has responded

    
kbertsche
Member
Posts: 1361
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 154 of 156 (512393)
06-17-2009 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by PaulK
06-17-2009 1:22 AM


quote:
quote:

Do we have extra-biblical records of more than one census under Quirinius?



No. We don't have any independent records of ANY Roman census of Judaea prior to 6 AD, or any record of Quirinius holding the governorship of Syria (or any other position that Luke might have meant) prior to 6 AD.

That's not what I asked. To be more specific, do we have any extrabiblical records of another census under Quirinius AFTER the 6 AD census? If so, your case would have more weight.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by PaulK, posted 06-17-2009 1:22 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by PaulK, posted 06-17-2009 10:12 AM kbertsche has acknowledged this reply

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12873
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 155 of 156 (512394)
06-17-2009 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by kbertsche
06-17-2009 10:02 AM


quote:

That's not what I asked. To be more specific, do we have any extrabiblical records of another census under Quirinius AFTER the 6 AD census? If so, your case would have more weight

Your argument is based on the assumption that Luke implies that there were two censuses under Quirinius. I have already answered that point in my previous post.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by kbertsche, posted 06-17-2009 10:02 AM kbertsche has acknowledged this reply

    
arbaba 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2253 days)
Posts: 3
Joined: 02-26-2011


Message 156 of 156 (606558)
02-26-2011 1:49 PM


Re.
That was a very healthy discussion,with some good and effective points,I really appreciate this thread,thanks for all the information.

Edited by AdminSlev, : Removed signature. Do not reply to this message


    
RewPrev1
...
678910
11
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017