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Author Topic:   Why are there no human apes alive today?
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 779 of 1075 (623401)
07-10-2011 4:00 AM
Reply to: Message 778 by Mazzy
07-10-2011 3:11 AM


Dr Adequate...I have read up on ERV's. and this is one of the things I found....
I might congratulate you for finding something completely consistent with the theory of evolution; except that it is of course very easy to do so.
Did you even read the article? Or did you just not understand it?
If you wish to be nast, desperate and offer simplistic refutes, then I'd say ERVs being a support for ancestry to apes has just been flushed down the toilet.
You would say a whole lot of crazy things. But they do not change reality.
If you wish to ask any questions about this article, I shall be happy to explain it to you. If, on the other hand, you just wish to quote a random piece of it and then spout bizarre and pitiable nonsense unrelated to the text ... then you might be a creationist.
...or do ERV's only matter when the results suit you?
This result suits me just fine.
Which scenario/excuse do you put your faith in?
I put my faith in reality, it's always served me well so far.
Basically your whole post was basically hot air and attitude with nothing worth refuting.
That's a poor excuse for not being able to refute any of it.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 778 by Mazzy, posted 07-10-2011 3:11 AM Mazzy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 788 by Mazzy, posted 07-10-2011 2:13 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 783 of 1075 (623418)
07-10-2011 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 781 by Mazzy
07-10-2011 4:22 AM


Re: Turkana ape-man
Neanderthal is human because he is Nephalim.
Evidence?
With an average male height of five feet five inches they don't sound much like the Nephilim (note spelling) described in Numbers 13:32, who were described as being "of great size".
Hence the differences in morphology and DNA.
Because they were the offspring of the sons of God and the daughters of men? (Genesis 6:4).
It would follow that male Neanderthals would have God's Y chromosome. Theologians have much to learn from the Neanderthal Genome Project. For one thing, they could find out if God has hairy ears.
Neanderthals are described as brutes and men of renown ...
Where are Neanderthals described as men of renown?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 781 by Mazzy, posted 07-10-2011 4:22 AM Mazzy has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 784 of 1075 (623420)
07-10-2011 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 782 by Mazzy
07-10-2011 5:45 AM


As you can see in the link a researcher can reconstruct a face as it suits them.
So you might hope, but it's probably harder than you think. How, for example, would you go about reconstructing the face of Turkana Boy to look "just like" that of Anoiapithecus, in line with your delusion-of-the-week?
Making small errors of reconstruction may be possible for scientists, but even a creationist would find it hard to make a really big one of that nature; I will wager you'll find it easier to continue to make your mistakes in written form.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 782 by Mazzy, posted 07-10-2011 5:45 AM Mazzy has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 785 of 1075 (623423)
07-10-2011 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 780 by Mazzy
07-10-2011 4:16 AM


Re: Turkana ape-man
The point is the skull looks like an ape because it is an ape.
Turkana Boy is human, the others, especially the one on display at the museum in Michagan, are apes. I am remiss in my ability to understand how such intelligent scientists cannot see the difference. The skulls are clearly ape and human.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 780 by Mazzy, posted 07-10-2011 4:16 AM Mazzy has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 794 of 1075 (623479)
07-10-2011 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 788 by Mazzy
07-10-2011 2:13 PM


So Dr Adequate the results sit fine with you do they? Well these sit fine with me also as they demonstate that apes are more closely related to each other than to humans.
No it doesn't, you big silly-billy. The article specifically says that the sites of integration are not homologous. I quote:
The authors compared the sites of viral integration in each of these primates and found that few if any of these insertion sites were shared among the primates. It appears therefore that the sequences have not been conserved from a common ancestor, but are specific to each lineage.
See? It has nothing to do with ancestry.
All this nonsense on ERV's demonstrates is that organisms were exposed to the same virus eg Hendra, swine flu, HIV.
No. That would not explain the homology of sites of integration in those cases where this is in fact in evidence.
Here is a link that demonstrates HIV is not an ERV.
I never said it was. What's your point?
I'd say a stack of organisms were bit by mozquitoes is all your ERVs demonstrate.
It may well be all your ERVs demonstrate. The ones at non-homologous sites.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 788 by Mazzy, posted 07-10-2011 2:13 PM Mazzy has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 796 of 1075 (623482)
07-10-2011 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 791 by Mazzy
07-10-2011 3:12 PM


I understand that any ERV evidence that puts apes as being more closely related to each other than mankind is ignored.
No, you fantasize that any ERV evidence that puts apes as being more closely related to each other than mankind is ignored.
You have not produced any such evidence.
I can also work out for myself without a degree in science that if virus like Hendra goes unchecked this is a virus that could spread from bat to horse to human, leave markers, yet has nothing to do with common descent.
Which is why the sites of integration would not be homologous.
The models that you use to sort this stuff are biased and are full of insertion values that will give you the results you need to see.
If that sentence was written in English it would probably be wrong.
I have posted evidence that HIV is NOT endogenous and it is one of your leading examples of ERV's that demonstrate the chimp human link
No it isn't. Stop making things up.
Look ...it is all just guesswork and playing around with algorithims ...
Look ... no it isn't.
The fact that you don't understand it, which you don't, does nothing to cast doubt on it. After all, there must be lots of aspects of science that you don't understand. Pretty much all of them in fact. And yet somehow science continues to progress ...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 791 by Mazzy, posted 07-10-2011 3:12 PM Mazzy has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 813 of 1075 (624565)
07-18-2011 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 810 by Mazzy
07-18-2011 3:35 PM


Re: Moderator on Duty
Hey ...I think the reason why posters have played the "we can prove evolution' line eg ERV's is at least partly due to an inability to robustly provide evidence or supported theory as to why there are no hairy apey creatures around today. In other words, the theories as to why erectus and earlier homonids went extinct often changes.
To summarize, you think the reason that we can and do prove that we're right is because we're wrong.
ERV evidence is convoluted mathematical nonsense where your researchers propose deletions and all sorts of assertions to explain why some ERV's are not apparent in all apes or are not found where they should be.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/...ases/2007/06/070621140809.htm]
Your link does not support your delusions, as you would know if you could understand it.
I have provided research that suggests Erectus went extinct in all other countries apart from Africa, prior to the second wave of human migrations. According to this research below there was no cohabitation either. You do not know why. You may theorise but you cannot say for sure.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/...ases/2011/06/110629181853.htm
If you know why, feel free to tell us.
So we are left with the African Homo erectus eg Turkana Boy sometimes classed as eregaster. I am alledging Turkana Boy is an ape. The reason I alledge this is the skeleton has the facial morphology of an ape. I have also provided evidence that flaced morphology in apes has been around for at least 12my with Lluc.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/...ases/2009/06/090602083729.htm
That would be the Lluc that doesn't actually have a flat face, right?
One poster put up the Lluc fossils. Fine, however it is very interesting how many here will belittle and dispute research findings from your own evo scientists when it does not suit you Much, if not most your fossil evidence for human ancestry is based on fragmentary evidence and portrayed in articles and papers by representative sketches that you are happy to use when they align with your argument.
Your fantasies are not, in fact, "very interesting".
I've got to tell you guys that I can hardly believe that well educated researchers get so bamboozled by fossils that are no more than varieties of apes. Look at the skulls pictures in the articles. They look absolutely nothing like a human skull at all. These are the remnants of ape skulls.
It's not just well-educated researchers that think H. erectus is more than a variety of ape. Most creationists maintain that it is completely human. Perhaps you could persuade them to set their own house in order.
Below is an article that suggests erectus is even more gorilla like that previously thought.
Perhaps you should show it to all the creationists who claim that H. erectus is completely human.
I have previously mentioned your lack of chimp, gorilla etc ancestor fossils. I strongly suggest that any ape or variety thereof have been scooped up and thrown in the human line.
And if only you could prove any of your nonsense instead of just "strongly suggesting" it, you'd look less like a crank with a grudge against reality.
Hence I maintain of the many assertions as to why no ape men are around today, mine is the stronger ...
You haven't given an explanation, despite me asking you to do so over and over again.
Let me ask you again. There are no living examples of austalopithicenes or habilines. Why not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 810 by Mazzy, posted 07-18-2011 3:35 PM Mazzy has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 817 of 1075 (624578)
07-18-2011 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 810 by Mazzy
07-18-2011 3:35 PM


I've got to tell you guys that I can hardly believe that well educated researchers get so bamboozled by fossils that are no more than varieties of apes.
How fortunate that we have amongst us an uneducated person such as yourself who is never bamboozled at all.
Have a go. Which would you like to call human and which are apes? What criterion are you using?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 810 by Mazzy, posted 07-18-2011 3:35 PM Mazzy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 820 by Mazzy, posted 07-18-2011 9:39 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 818 of 1075 (624579)
07-18-2011 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 816 by Mazzy
07-18-2011 8:44 PM


Turkana Boy
I have no idea why any creationist would purport Turkana Boy to be human ...
Well, why don't you try to remember why you did so yourself, repeatedly and emphatically, just a few weeks ago.
Like this:
Turkana Boy is human, the others, especially the one on display at the museum in Michagan, are apes. I am remiss in my ability to understand how such intelligent scientists cannot see the difference. The skulls are clearly ape and human.
And this:
However if they would have pictured Turkana Boy he is fully human.
And this:
I am saying Turkana Boy is fully human. [...] Yet the bottom line is Turkana Boy is human.
And this:
Turkana boy, however is human
And this:
Really most of your Homo Erectus fossils are nothing more than a variety of gorilla, with a human thrown in here and there eg Turkana boy and possibly the little skull cap from Java man. These are just like those of an Australian Aboriginal and well within the variation of human skulls today that vary greatly.
When you know why you thought that, you will know why a creationist would think that, what with you being a creationist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 816 by Mazzy, posted 07-18-2011 8:44 PM Mazzy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 821 by Mazzy, posted 07-18-2011 9:42 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 823 of 1075 (624585)
07-18-2011 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 820 by Mazzy
07-18-2011 9:39 PM


Your own researchers debate these fossils and where they should be. However I am not surprised by hypocricy and requesting more clarity from a creationist than evolutionists themselves can supply. It appears to be a common theme of yours.
It is creationists who believe that there is a clear division and evolutionists who believe that there is not.
Would it be hypocrisy in me to demand a demonstration of levitation from people who claim that they can levitate but not from those who say that levitation is impossible?
"E" is the only human in your *** list, many of which are reconstructions from fragments and overactive imaginations to begin with...!!!!!
Congratulations, you have just identified one Cro-Magnon and three completely modern human skulls as apes.
None of them, of course, is a "reconstruction from fragments", nor indeed from an overactive imagination, this being the sort of intangible thing that doesn't photograph well.
You didn't say what criterion you were using to distinguish between them, and now I am more curious than ever. Having proclaimed the unbridgeable divide between humans and apes, you put skull 2 in the image below with skull 3 as an ape rather than with skull 1 as a human.
Perhaps you could tell us why.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 820 by Mazzy, posted 07-18-2011 9:39 PM Mazzy has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 824 of 1075 (624586)
07-18-2011 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 821 by Mazzy
07-18-2011 9:42 PM


Re: Turkana Boy
Pathetic..Dr Adequate..as I said already if I cannot change my mind TOE is long dead and zombified.
Turkana Boy is an ape and your straw grabbing is hilarious.....as are your personal attacks that mean nothing to me at all.
You are just another that has sucked all this nonsense up by the gallon.
Why the anger? All I did was to suggest, sensibly enough as I thought, that if you really want to know how a creationist can identify Turkana Boy as human, you should try to remember why you yourself did so. Surely you had some reason for your opinion. Perhaps when you've remembered what it is, you could tell the rest of us what it was.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 821 by Mazzy, posted 07-18-2011 9:42 PM Mazzy has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 830 of 1075 (624601)
07-19-2011 2:19 AM
Reply to: Message 829 by Mazzy
07-19-2011 1:35 AM


Re: Turkana Boy
Mazzy writes:
I have no idea why any creationist would purport Turkana Boy to be human ...
Mazzy writes:
I know perfectly well why creationists think Turkana Boy is human.
Well well.
However on looking at the side view and using the great reasoning ability God gave me I can plainly see that he is an ape.
Also, looking at the side view and using your supposed "great reasoning ability" you identified three modern-day humans as apes. Maybe your reasoning ability isn't quite so great as you think it is.
Some Creationists actually think these reconstructons mean something or are based on some sort of science.
They're looking at exactly the same reconstruction as you were when you applied your famous reasoning ability. The thing has only been stuck back together in one way, there being only one of it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 829 by Mazzy, posted 07-19-2011 1:35 AM Mazzy has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 831 of 1075 (624602)
07-19-2011 2:34 AM
Reply to: Message 828 by Mazzy
07-19-2011 1:32 AM


I do not think it fair that evos request more of creationists than they themselves can provide. It is hypocritical to do so.
No it isn't.
We don't claim that there is a rigid uncrossable dividing line between human and ape. You guys do.
If Alice says there aren't fairies at the bottom of the garden, and Bob says there are, it is not "hypocritical" for me to ask Bob, but not Alice, to show me a fairy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 828 by Mazzy, posted 07-19-2011 1:32 AM Mazzy has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 841 of 1075 (624623)
07-19-2011 5:03 AM
Reply to: Message 832 by IamJoseph
07-19-2011 4:06 AM


Evolution claims to be an 'on-going' process. An on-going process is not impacted by the time factor. If an ape evolved to a human 1 B years ago, this process does not cease: it occured one second after a Billion years, continuously, including last friday. The math destroys evolution.
This doesn't mean anything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 832 by IamJoseph, posted 07-19-2011 4:06 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 842 by IamJoseph, posted 07-19-2011 5:08 AM Dr Adequate has replied
 Message 843 by bluegenes, posted 07-19-2011 5:09 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 844 of 1075 (624626)
07-19-2011 5:14 AM
Reply to: Message 842 by IamJoseph
07-19-2011 5:08 AM


Then deal with it. Unless evolution says every billion years a human evolves from another species, then the process goes into freeze.
This doesn't mean anything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 842 by IamJoseph, posted 07-19-2011 5:08 AM IamJoseph has not replied

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