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Author Topic:   Scientific Knowledge
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 312 of 377 (636031)
10-03-2011 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by Straggler
10-02-2011 6:19 PM


Re: Scientific Explanations
Hello. I am going to ask all of the participants of any consequence in this thread the same question.
Question: - Does the fact that a given proposition is untestable preclude a de-facto atheist stance (i.e. 6 on the Dawkins scale) from being rationally taken towards that proposition?
No, not necessarily... but it helps!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Straggler, posted 10-02-2011 6:19 PM Straggler has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 328 of 377 (636272)
10-05-2011 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 327 by Panda
10-04-2011 5:39 PM


Re: english 101
In Message 241:, Straggler wrote:
quote:
What does experience tell you is the necessary source of propositions for which there is no evidence? In the absence of any supporting evidence whatsoever where but the minds of creative beings unrestrained by external truths in their conceptions can such notions come from? What does experience (in conjunction with those critical thinking skills) tell you about the likelihood of evidentially baseless propositions being correct? Possible in some philosophical sense. They cannot be discarded with absolute certainty. But "very improbable" as actual aspects of reality.
According to this logic, if the proposition is: "there are no gods", and we don't have any evidence for that, then it should be considered very improbable that there aren't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 327 by Panda, posted 10-04-2011 5:39 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 333 by Straggler, posted 10-05-2011 12:01 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 337 by Panda, posted 10-05-2011 12:52 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 329 of 377 (636273)
10-05-2011 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by Straggler
09-30-2011 5:15 AM


Re: Scientific Explanations
Which brings us back to the original (and still unanswered) question — Why is it that some theories do and some theories don’t?
I did too answer that question, back in Message 160:
quote:
Well why do they "work" more successfully than the alternatives unless they are more accurate descriptions of reality than the alternatives? More "correct" than the alternatives, if you will.
There's multiple reasons. Part of it is how the theory is set-up (rigorous and parsimonious), how simple the falsification test would be, and what you're testing it on.
I referred you to it again in Message 164 when you asked the same question again. This is the third time, I won't do it anymore.
Because unless their theories and explanations are accurate descriptions of reality they won’t work will they? Indeed those engaged in constructing and developing explanations judge the accuracy of their descriptions by testing them against the reality they are attempting to describe. This is why successful predictions are deemed to be indicators of a theory being true (or to be more accurate approximately true)
If you're theory more closely matches reality, then it will work better, but working better doesn't necessarily mean that your threory more closely matches reality.
CS writes:
Why would a scientific explanation even address a baseless proposition?
Because there are some people who insist that certain scientific theories and conclusions cannot be drawn without first testing/falsifying their particular brand of evidentially baseless but untestable/unfalsifiable woo woo
Bullshit. They don't even address them at all and that's gotta be one of the stupidest reason to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Straggler, posted 09-30-2011 5:15 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 335 by Straggler, posted 10-05-2011 12:18 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 334 of 377 (636292)
10-05-2011 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 333 by Straggler
10-05-2011 12:01 PM


Re: english 101
But (as we all keep relentlessly repeating) the conclusion is not "there are no gods".
The conclusion, based on the positive evidence, is that gods are figments of human imagination, no more likely to be real entities than any other such human invention.
Get it right.
That's a seperate issue, you repeating it is your own problem.
*IF*, I repeat, If the proposition was as such, would you reject it if there was no evidence for it?
Its an application of the same logic to a different proposition.
Agnosticism cannot be demanded just because something is unfalsifiable. That is the lesson that needs to learnt here.
It is at least as much about the evidence supporting a given proposition. Or, in many cases, the lack of it.
But science rules things out by falsifying them, not because of a lack of evidence for them... those things it just ignores. Its a non-position like agnosticism is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 333 by Straggler, posted 10-05-2011 12:01 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 336 by Straggler, posted 10-05-2011 12:28 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 338 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-05-2011 1:18 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 339 of 377 (636307)
10-05-2011 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 336 by Straggler
10-05-2011 12:28 PM


Re: english 101
CS writes:
If you're theory more closely matches reality, then it will work better, but working better doesn't necessarily mean that your threory more closely matches reality.
That appears contradictory.
If A then B does not imply that If B then A...
If theory A produces more reliable and accurate predictions than theory B then theory A more closely matches reality than theory B. Right? Frankly this seems inarguable. But you seem to be disputing it.
If I end up with better predictions of the position of a falling body by using Newtonian Mechanics than I do by using General Relativity, that wouldn't mean that Newtonian Mechanics more closely matches reality.
Where we conclude that something (e.g. evolution) is highly likely to be correct we necessarily eliminate mutually exclusive alternatives (e.g. omphalistic special creation) as very unlikely.
Sure, when I conclude something, there's all kinds of different mutually exclusive proposition you could come up with that would necessarily be eliminated, but that's neither here nor there.
Any proposition for which there is no evidence of any sort whatsoever (which obviously raises the question of what is evidence and what is not - but that is a separate issue) is necessarily the product of imaginative minds.
And thus highly unlikely, given the proposition: "there are no gods", if there's a lack of evidence for that then it should be rejected as highly unlikely, ergo...
there *are* gods wait, you sure?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by Straggler, posted 10-05-2011 12:28 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 340 by Straggler, posted 10-05-2011 3:15 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied
 Message 342 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-05-2011 5:10 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

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