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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Occupy Wall Street

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Author Topic:   Occupy Wall Street
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2587
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 7.0


Message 61 of 602 (636188)
10-04-2011 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Dr Adequate
10-04-2011 3:19 PM


Re: What George Said
The Doctor writes, in part:
...not taking away their guns is part of a "massive Obama conspiracy" to take away their guns
Best laugh of the day!!!
LOL!!!

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 831 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 62 of 602 (636189)
10-04-2011 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Coyote
10-04-2011 3:10 PM


Re: What George Said
You do realize this movement isn't about left vs. right, don't you? Do you hafve anything at all to say about the movement itself, Ocupy Wall St. in particular? I am desperate to hear your evidence based opinions about this sort of thing, especially given your science credentials.

"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
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xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2587
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 7.0


(3)
Message 63 of 602 (636190)
10-04-2011 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Omnivorous
10-04-2011 3:14 PM


Re: What George Said
Omnivorous raises his hand:
jar writes:
I don't think there even is a left in the US these days.
Here I is!
Me too!!!

- xongsmith, 5.7d

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Replies to this message:
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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.3


(1)
Message 64 of 602 (636193)
10-04-2011 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Coyote
10-04-2011 2:34 PM


Re: What George Said
Perhaps, although organized, the far left is much smaller than they would have you believe?
No way to tell, honestly, partially because of the subjectivity in defining the "far left." It's actually harder than identifying the "far right."
Why?
No unifying message. The "far right" has religious reactionaries and mortal fear of taxation or funding anything government-related. The "far left" has...what?
Let's use me as an example. I'm anti-firearms (I'd like gun laws like Britain or Canada), pro-universal healthcare (single-payer government run, like Canada), anti-war, anti-Guantanamo, pro-civil rights for everyone including terrorists and non-Americans, pro-gay-marriage and general equality, I strongly favor prison reform, legalization\regulation\taxation of most drugs and prostitution and gambling...
...but I'm also extremely pro-nuclear (I view France as a model - nuclear fuel reprocessing and all), and consider myself to be fiscally conservative (I favor social programs as long as their working, and I abhor wasteful spending like the majority of the Defense budget). I'm pro-individual freedom, while also supporting a public safety net. I favor environmental protections, but think the Green Party are a bunch of idiots and that envisioning solar/wind/geothermal/hydro power as anything other than supplemental power generation is a pipe dream.
Where do I fit? Am I "far left?" Why? What really calibrates the spectrum?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 65 of 602 (636194)
10-04-2011 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Rahvin
10-04-2011 3:39 PM


Re: What George Said
The problem is that, after the election, the base expected to see some "hope and change," some "yes we can;" and instead of continuing to rally his support, instead of hosting massive events with tens of thousands of attendees like during his election campaign to sell his proposals and pressure Congress with his massive public mandate...Obama went and started asking the minority Republicans for permission and giving up on campaign promises as "impossible to push through Congress" right from the beginning.
Some of this had to do with the filibuster rules in the Senate. There were only 59 Dems, not enough to bust a filibuster if the Reps wanted to mount one. Frankly, Dems should have called the bluff and let them cry like babies for 3 months after which they could have enacted a half way decent bill.
This also brings up another important point related more to the OP. Should we get rid of the filibuster? It does offer the minority protection of the tyranny of the majority, but is it worth it? In the last 10 years it is used to such a high degree that Congress has come to a screaching halt. It forces the majority to capitulate to the minority to such a degree that most bills are a worthless hybrid. You can hardly blame the voter for thinking that their vote doesn't matter when Congress gets nothing done, other than preening in front of the TV camera.
In addition to the changes we have mentioned earlier, should there be a way to fast track an agenda based on voter mandate? Should the President be able to bust a filibuster and force a vote on a bill?

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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 831 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 66 of 602 (636195)
10-04-2011 4:15 PM


Well spoken protester
This is an (obviously) unaired interview. Wonder why Fox didn't air it???

"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2136 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 67 of 602 (636196)
10-04-2011 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Rahvin
10-04-2011 3:57 PM


Re: What George Said
I agree with a lot of your points. I too am a fiscal conservative, but that certainly puts me in company with a lot of social conservatives, who I don't believe are conservatives at all.
Rather than being for individual liberty, they want all the rest of us to live under their rules.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9202
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


(2)
Message 68 of 602 (636198)
10-04-2011 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by xongsmith
10-04-2011 3:50 PM


Re: What George Said
Me three!!

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 69 of 602 (636205)
10-04-2011 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Coyote
10-04-2011 4:22 PM


Re: What George Said
I agree with a lot of your points. I too am a fiscal conservative, but that certainly puts me in company with a lot of social conservatives, who I don't believe are conservatives at all.
Rather than being for individual liberty, they want all the rest of us to live under their rules.
In other words, they say "I support your freedom to make the same choices I would make!"
"Freedom of religion means the ability to worship Jesus however you want!"
"Freedom of speech means the freedom to say anything that I personally would approve of!"

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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3991
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.5


Message 70 of 602 (636215)
10-04-2011 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Dr Adequate
10-04-2011 3:19 PM


Re: What George Said
Dr A writes:
See?
All too well.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1497 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 71 of 602 (636222)
10-04-2011 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Rahvin
10-04-2011 3:39 PM


Re: What George Said
He could have used the massive popular support to put pressure on his fellow Democrats to actually be responsive to their base.
And what form does that "pressure" take, precisely?
Obama won the 2008 election with a huge public mandate against Bush-era policies on a message of change, and then he squandered the political force he gained as a candidate and began capitulating from day one.
Because he didn't have enough votes in Congress. Remember Congress? The body that actually makes the laws? How many Democrats were there in the Senate the day Obama took office?
57. How many votes does it take to break a Senate filibuster, a now-necessary condition for passing legislation?
60. I trust you can compare numbers, yes? 57 is smaller than 60.
I claimed that Obama "let go" of his popular support once he became President.
And what form did this "letting go" take? It certainly didn't take the form of Obama not asking the grassroots to do things:
quote:
President Obama urged his supporters to "get the message out" on his health care reform principles, calling a forthcoming organizing drive "our big chance to prove that the movement that started during the campaign isn't over."
http://www.theatlantic.com/...ts-for-health-care-fight/18444
That's from May 2009, only a few weeks into the health care fight. Or even earlier, on the stimulus fight:
quote:
As President Obama heads back out on the road to sell his economic plans, he tells his grassroots army that his election wasn't change but only the chance to make change.
In a video released today, he urges them to canvass their neighborhoods this weekend to build support for his $3.6 trillion budget that he says will "lay a foundation for lasting growth and prosperity" by investing in healthcare, education, and renewable energy.
http://www.boston.com/...igence/2009/03/obama_seeks_gra.html
Of course, because the Democratic base has no enthusiasm, these appeals had basically no effect on the actual body responsible for legislation:
quote:
Democratic Party volunteers, trying to keep President Barack Obama's campaign spirit alive, blitzed Congress on Wednesday with thousands of pledges from voters urging support for his federal budget bill. The grass-roots drive is a major effort by Obama's team to change the way Washington does business.
Members of Congress barely noticed.
"I've never even heard of this," said Rep. Heath Shuler of North Carolina, a key Democratic moderate.
Rep. Peter DeFazio, D-Ore., saw the drive as just another stab by another group to influence him, hardly an Obama-era phenomenon.
"We get bombarded all the time," the 12-term veteran said. "I haven't seen any big uptick in my e-mails since they knocked on doors. It's not that effective."
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/...er-obama-grassroots-drive.html
The truth is that Obama exhorted his grassroots base to continue the work after the election, and like always, the Democratic base figured that they'd won the Presidency and could therefore all kick back. Obama did exactly what you're complaining he didn't, and it had no effect - not because Obama is a bad president or a fake liberal but because you're a bad voter. You, and me, and our Democratic peers.
As I said, Obama is the only candidate on the "left" (and I really consider him more "center" myself) that I've ever seen whip up such an energized base of popular support, which promptly disappeared after the election itself.
You're right. But as I've demonstrated, it certainly wasn't for want of Obama asking his base to keep up their participation in politics. He asked, and throngs of Democrats answered back - the hills resounding with "uh, whatever" and "naw, feeling rather nappish."
instead of continuing to rally his support, instead of hosting massive events with tens of thousands of attendees like during his election campaign to sell his proposals
Jesus Christ, Rahvin. The guy was running the largest Executive Branch in the western world. Do you honestly think it's appropriate for the President of the United States - the whole United States, not just the Democrats of the United States - to be spending all that time on enormous spectacles and rallies? Who was going to pay for those rallies? Was that just supposed to come out of tax dollars?
Don't you think our Republican peers might have had legitimate objections to that? Wouldn't you have objected if Bush had spent 70-80% of his time at massive Republican rallies trying to gin up support for the war in Iraq or the privatization of health care?
You don't seem to have any notion of what actually happened when Obama won the election. When he won the election, several things happened, for instance:
1) He became President of the United States of America.
2) His campaign ceased to exist.
3) His campaign staff took jobs in the Federal government.
Not only did Obama have a new full-time job whose obligations and responsibilities basically forestall a pre-election campaign schedule; not only did he suddenly gain legal obstacles to conducting such a campaign; his campaign staff all suddenly had exactly the same obstacles - they had a country to run.
Obama went and started asking the minority Republicans for permission
Because he needed their fucking permission! There weren't enough Democrats and Independents in the Senate to pass legislation without Republican votes. Only as the result of the completely unforeseen defection of Arlen Specter was Obama able to assemble a 60-vote supermajority in the Senate, which of course was immediately undermined by the Blue Dogs and DINO's, since the defection of even a single legislator would scuttle any legislation, giving potential defectors enormous power to extort concessions and pork. You don't recall the "Cornhusker kickback"? Do you recall that its architect was a Democrat? Do you recall that the public option was taken out of the Senate's version of the health care bill because Senate Democrats didn't want it there?
You've somehow mythologized the first two years of the Obama administration as his immediate capitulation to Republicans, but the actual truth - which I feel like I'm the only one who remembers - is quite different. We didn't get the public option or a larger stimulus because Democrats didn't want those things. It was the Democrats that Obama capitulated to, and why wouldn't he? Who else was possibly going to vote for his agenda?
Why do you think the base lost steam?
Because his base was made out of Democrats!
using the public mandate to pressure them through Congress
How does the "public mandate" pressure Congressmen? Please be specific.

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dronestar
Member
Posts: 1417
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 7.0


(2)
Message 72 of 602 (636279)
10-05-2011 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Rahvin
10-04-2011 3:39 PM


Re: What George Said
Rahvin writes:
I claimed that Obama "let go" of his popular support once he became President.
Rahvin writes:
Where he should have been continuing to energize the public and selling his proposals and using the public mandate to pressure them through Congress, he instead demoralized the base by showing that he wasn't really going to follow through on basically anything he had promised.
Good post Rhavin, but I didn't think you went far enough.
I am gonna propose another Obama II thread shortly. However, I've been so busy at work, I fear I won't be able to baby-sit it.
From your above quotes, it seems you think Obama changed direction once in the white house. Or at least stopped fighting the good fight. However, if you researched his PRE-white house actions and associations, i think you might consider that he was never going to follow through on his proposals. Browse through the previous Obama thread for other evidence, but for now consider these two things:
1. While a SENATOR he voted FOR illegal wiretapping. While this was hideous enough, what this signaled was that he was gonna allow ALL of Bush/Chaney's criminal actions to pass without consequence. The 35 Articles of Impeachment by Kucinich never was acted on. Chaney was so sure Obama wouldn't assign investigators that to this day Chaney openly brags about torturing. Although Obama pledged to uphold the constitution and its laws, Bush and Chaney know they are safe. Obama actions clearly showed he was not for justice or for the public's welfare.
Efforts to impeach George W. Bush - Wikipedia
2. Please read "Obama’s Money Cartel"
It clearly shows his real masters are on Wall Street. No one should have expected hope or change.
"Seven of the Obama campaign’s top 14 donors consist of officers and employees of the same Wall Street firms charged time and again with looting the public and newly implicated in originating and/or bundling fraudulently made mortgages. . . The political publication, The Hill, reported on December 20, 2007, that three salaried aides on the Obama campaign were registered lobbyists for dozens of corporations.
On February 10, 2005, SENATOR Obama voted in favor of the passage of the Class Action Fairness Act of 2005. Senators Biden, Boxer, Byrd, Clinton, Corzine, Durbin, Feingold, Kerry, Leahy, Reid and 16 other Democrats voted against it. It passed the Senate 72-26 and was signed into law on February 18, 2005. . . . Three days before Senator Obama expressed that fateful yea vote, 14 state attorneys general, including Lisa Madigan of Senator Obama’s home state of Illinois, filed a letter with the Senate and House, pleading to stop the passage of this corporate giveaway. . . .This legislation, which dramatically impaired labor rights, consumer rights and civil rights, involved five years of pressure from 100 corporations, 475 lobbyists, tens of millions of corporate dollars buying influence in our government, and the active participation of the Wall Street firms now funding the Obama campaign
Should there be any doubt left as to who owns our government? The very same cast of characters making the Obama hit parade of campaign loot are the clever creators of the industry solutions to the wave of foreclosures gripping this nation’s poor and middle class, effectively putting the solution in the hands of the robbers.
zcommunications.org - zcommunications Resources and Information.
Edited by dronester, : formatted into paragraghs, better readability

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 73 of 602 (636322)
10-05-2011 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by jar
10-04-2011 2:56 PM


Re: What George Said
me for four

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 74 of 602 (636323)
10-05-2011 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Rahvin
10-04-2011 3:57 PM


Re: What George Said
Hi Rahvin
You take each issue and place where you are on the bell curve, then average the results, weight the ones you feel more strongly about heavier and you end up with an approximation.
Do that with everyone, and you will find a lot of variation in the middle and less as you get out to the extremes.
If the GOP are less variable than the DEM then that indicates they are more extreme than the DEM.
Problem is the apathetic middle that has opinions and concerns but don't see enough difference to bother voting. Voting NONE would be interesting to see.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Rahvin, posted 10-04-2011 3:57 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 866 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 75 of 602 (636344)
10-05-2011 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by jar
10-04-2011 2:56 PM


Re: What George Said
I guess some would say I count as 5.
But most would say that as a syndicalist-anarchist libertarian, I am not a 5 but rather a fifth columnist for Noam Chomsky.
It's just like the drill Sargent said in basic, I am to stupid to know left from right.
Now back to lurking, there is always an upcoming due date when one is in grad school. Fifth times' a charm.

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon

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