|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Scientific vs Creationist Frauds and Hoaxes | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Panda
Portillo is correct to list it as a scientific fraud. Yep, and I agreed that it was a fraud. Problem? He also listed information showing asserting that this fraud was still being perpetuated, which is not entirely correct - the drawings have been used, but the discussion around them is not that his hypothesis was correct, but how it has been corrected. Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
caffeine Member (Idle past 1053 days) Posts: 1800 From: Prague, Czech Republic Joined: |
Do Haeckels embryos still appear in high school science textbooks? Not having a bunch of high-school science textbooks lying around this is difficult to answer. I don't recall them being in our high school books. Neither embryology or evolution were given any significant time at school under the curriculum I studied. I've been trying to find out through use of the wide world of web how much, if at all, they're used in modern textbooks used in the USA, and it's difficult to tell. The only article I've found that investigates in any detail is on Pharyngula, on account of him teaching embryology and thus having many textbooks to hand. The answer appears to be no, not much.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi caffeine,
... but it's not at all clear that it's true. And they aren't shockingly inaccurate. The picture below is taken from Josh Rosensau on scienceblogs). Thanks. So it could have been his conviction that he was right influencing what he saw, rather than outright fraud. Interesting. However, this does not change the fact that his hypothesis was wrong and has been corrected by later science. Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Portillo,
Do Haeckels embryos still appear in high school science textbooks? They do still appear in some textbooks, however when they are used it is to discuss what embryology does and does not show. As caffeine has pointed out, they are not that inaccurate in what they show, the inaccuracy was the hypothesis, which has been invalidated - not ALL stages of phylogenic history are repeated, just some, and different histories are retained in different branches of descent. Other textbooks, like the one by Ken Miller and Joe Levine (5th edition) do not - they use drawings based on actual photos: Haeckel's Embryos
quote: This says more about how textbooks are developed by publishers - do they spend money on new photos or do they use existing material? - and how textbooks are selected by schools (cost & convenience vs accuracy) than about how the actual science is done. But also please note that this thread is not for discussion of the different frauds, but to list them. If there is some doubt about this actually being an intentional fraud by Haeckel, then I am willing to list it on the evolution side, fraud does happen in science, however I also note how much it is overbalanced by frauds on the creationist side. If you are going to argue that the drawings show that the alleged fraud is still being presented, then you need to present the words in the textbooks and show that they are fraudulent or perpetuate a false hypothesis. Thanks for your interest. Enjoy. Edited by Zen Deist, : book infoby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Portillo Member (Idle past 4189 days) Posts: 258 Joined: |
Of course it matters. If its a fraud, it shouldnt be used in textbooks. At least not without a disclaimer which I think some textbooks have.
Edited by Portillo, : No reason given.And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
dwise1 Member Posts: 5952 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
A major problem is with textbooks. In the mid 1980's, Bill Bennetta (The Textbook League, http://www.textbookleague.org/) became involved in textbook selection. As reported in the NCSE's Creation/Evolution Newsletter of the time, the California State Board of Education was considering textbooks for the state's biology classes. Bennetta was able to get a group of scientists involved in that review process. They found that every single textbook being considered was full of inaccuracies and false information.
Think about it, now. Textbooks are published by textbook publishers. The textbooks themselves are written by professional textbook writers, not by scientists. Furthermore, in that long period from the triumph of the anti-evolution forces in the 1920's, when the major "monkey laws" were passed, to Sputnik (circa 1959) when we suddenly found ourselves in a "science gap" (please view "Doctor Strangelove" for some of that era's mentality) and were suddenly trying to catch up in science education, the anti-evolution forces were continually applying pressure on textbook publishers, much as creationists continue to try to do. Here's how that issue "resolved itself" in mid-80's California: the board of scientists made their recommendations of corrections to the least erroneous textbooks, the publishers made a few token corrections, and the State Board approved the textbooks behind the backs of the scientists. There are two separate questions here: What did Haeckel do? And what does actual study of embryos indicate? The fraudulent things that Haeckel did are indeed fraudulent. But at the same time, what does the actual study of actual embryos show?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Learn to read.
I asked two questions;
quote: In English and most languages the concept of order is essential; when reading you need to understand that a statement like the above involves precedent. The first question was "Which version" referring to either the drawings or for the last 100 years or so, photographs. The question "Does it matter" refers to the question "Which version". Would you like to try again?Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Portillo Member (Idle past 4189 days) Posts: 258 Joined: |
quote: No. And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Pressie Member Posts: 2103 From: Pretoria, SA Joined: |
Haeckel embryo's have never appeared in any high school textbooks utilized in my country.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Jefferinoopolis, just saw your new post proposal, and thought you might want to look at this thread.
Proposed New Topics Evolution - A Theory Based on Hoaxes? Message 1: In message 39 of the "Where are all the apes leading up to humans" Crytogod stated
quote: I would like Crytogod to detail some of these hoaxes so we can critically examine them. They are probably already covered here. Of course it would be interesting to see how CrytoGod presents information to show that hoaxes are an integral and intentional part of science ... Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
From Best Evidence Macro-Evolution, message 144
My blog on this subject is called "evolution's shell game"WordPress.com — Get a Free Blog Here A quick look:
quote: Typical misinformation and ignorance being spread to delude the gullible, once again. Also seehttp://www.idscience.ca EVOLUTIONS BEST EVIDENCE? For more of same. Fraud posing as knowledge. Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : No reason given. Edited by RAZD, : changed hoax to fraudby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.5
|
Typical misinformation and ignorance being spread to delude the gullible, once again.
Yes, I agree with that. On the other hand, I would not call it a hoax. I'll note that idscience's web site is so ugly that it hurts the eyes. I don't think it will attract many readers.Jesus was a liberal hippie
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
|
ok, fraud then, posing as knowledge, pretending to know more than he does.
agree on the site. particularly bad on my screen when his text extends down out of his boxes. bad design. Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : code by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Theodoric Member Posts: 9201 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2
|
Typical creotard format and layout on the website. They all think they are ace web designers too.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
Typical creotard format and layout on the website. They all think they are ace web designers too. For what its worth, I'm used to finding lots of good information on poorly designed, eyeball busting web pages. For example, for some reason, programmers tend to make bad looking web pages full of useful content. I can forgive bad layout, and atrocious spelling. But it is almost impossible to read more than a couple of sentences without hearing the invisible man whispering rebuttals into your ear using your voice.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024