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Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Occupy Wall Street, London and Evereywhere Else | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
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Jazzns Member (Idle past 3942 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
Plus, the irony of pro-Obama supporters protesting the bankers Obama bailed out. I think you will find that most of the hardcore OWSers are pretty critical of Obama. They are probably the ones responsible for his disapproval rating from the left. The reason it is OWS and not ODC is exactly because they feel betrayed by the administration and rightly so. When you ask them what they want to do politically you might as well have passed gas the way they cringe about the situation. They don't want to be in the tank for a candidate. Thats the problem with what happend in 2008. Obama's supporters didn't just go away, they just realize that they should have been backing a set of principles instead of a PERSON.BUT if objects for gratitude and admiration are our desire, do they not present themselves every hour to our eyes? Do we not see a fair creation prepared to receive us the instant we are born --a world furnished to our hands, that cost us nothing? Is it we that light up the sun; that pour down the rain; and fill the earth with abundance? Whether we sleep or wake, the vast machinery of the universe still goes on. Are these things, and the blessings they indicate in future, nothing to, us? Can our gross feelings be excited by no other subjects than tragedy and suicide? Or is the gloomy pride of man become so intolerable, that nothing can flatter it but a sacrifice of the Creator? --Thomas Paine
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined:
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That's what I haven't understood since the beginning... What are the protester really expecting to happen? To elicit social, and then political change.
I just don't see any actual results from all this. Seems the ballot box would be a better place to make changes. Just about any movement that's ever succeeded has had people respond to it in this fashion. Of course, since one of the complaints is systematic corruption, the ballot box isn't necessarily the first solution. Polls indicate that a majority of Americans are in some way sympathetic to OWS' goals. This is as a result of the movement existing. If politicians cared about what the people think, we should see this reflected in those that are running. The issue, though, is that politicians who should care about what the people think, instead care about those that donate significant sums for their campaign.
Its not like either the banks or politicians are gonna go: "Oops, yeah, we fucked you all. We're sorry. Here's your money back." It's not like the politicians are gonna say "Oops, yeah we disenfranchised you all. We're sorry, ladies, here's your rightful vote" Now obviously, nobody is expecting the corrupt politicians to safeguard or return taxpayers money. But it might be nice if we started voting for people who want to change the system to minimize corruption. It's not easy, perhaps it is not even likely, but that's what movements are traditionally all about: the little people banding together against the power elites and making change happen.
Although, I guess the portests can win the hearts and minds of the voters and get them out there to actually vote. But that isn't really the message I'm getting from them. Vote for who? Just about all the candidates on offer are essentially part of the corrupt system. There certainly does not appear enough principled politicians out there to outweigh the power of the greedy opportunists. One of the problems is that being principled is penalized in the system that is being run by the greedy opportunists. What can be done? Well one thing that can be done is gather together and discuss with one another what can be done. To quote from some of the work that is being done in these discussion groups:
quote: There is also talk within the movement of formally drafting grievances and serving them to the government, and of forming an independent third party if the grievances are not addressed.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
CS writes: What are the protester really expecting to happen? Expecting? Well that ranges from the desperately naive to the insanely cynical. With everything in-between. The hope, aim I guess, is to instigate change of a sort that seems impossible in the present political context.
CS writes: I just don't see any actual results from all this. OK. What results would you like to see? Unless you think things are hunky-dory as they are I suspect that you and the Occupy protesters have more in common than you might suspect.
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Taz Member (Idle past 3322 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
Modulous writes:
While I agree with you, this is somewhat different. There's really no clear objective to the occupy wall street movement. What exactly do they want changed and how? Just about any movement that's ever succeeded has had people respond to it in this fashion. Of course, since one of the complaints is systematic corruption, the ballot box isn't necessarily the first solution. Yeah, it's still burning strong, but with no clear direction the movement is fated to die down.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Taz writes: What exactly do they want changed and how? Broadly (for starters) - Less unaccountable corporate influence and more genuine representation of the electorate. In short taking back democratic power and accountability where it has been eroded. How exactly this is achieved varies from country to country. In the US the role of lobbyists and political financing must be high on the agenda. In London the role of the Corporation of London is a major issue. Even more generally - Making the financial system something that works to the benefit of all rather than society subservient to the needs of a financial system that benefits only a very few. How to achieve this - Well that is a subject of much (at times fascinating and - I have to admit - at other times shambolic) debate. But even without answers I would suggest that the Occupy movement is in many cases at least asking the right questions. Meanwhile our politicians bury their heads in the sand and hope that things will blow over and carry on pretty much as before.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 315 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
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Is there an occupy Paris? Moscow? Beijing? Johannesburg? Mexico City? Brasilia? Madrid? Kuala Lampur? Bangkok? Canberra? Nairobi? Karachi? New Delhi? Warsaw? Prague? Riyadh? Tehran? Jerusalem? how global is it? You don't know that, but you do know that it's been over-reported by the media?
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I'm not going to explain it.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2981 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
I think you will find that most of the hardcore OWSers are pretty critical of Obama. They are probably the ones responsible for his disapproval rating from the left. The reason it is OWS and not ODC is exactly because they feel betrayed by the administration and rightly so.
I accept that they're critical of Obama, but I also feel that they will vote for Obama again. No chance these left leaning OWS'ers will vote republican. Which to me seems insane, to protest a bail out given by a president that they'll vote in again. - Oni
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onifre Member (Idle past 2981 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
How exactly this is achieved varies from country to country. In the US the role of lobbyists and political financing must be high on the agenda.
Campaign reform, it's the only way. Predicted estimate for this election will be over a billion in campaign contribution FOR EACH CANDIDATE. Where does that money come from? What does that money buy people? How can there NOT BE corporate influence when a presidential campaign requires billions in contribution? - Oni
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Which to me seems insane, to protest a bail out given by a president that they'll vote in again. What's the alternative? Voting for a Republican who supported the bailout? The Party that also did bailouts when they were in power? There are some problems with both parties. But I think most OWSers would agree there are less problems with the Democrats (but not by much - they are more likely to support gay rights, reproductive freedoms etc). If it seems insane, that's because the system is insane. And that's what's being protested
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Surely we are not yet blaming Obama for the fall 2008, prior to either his election or his inauguration financial bailouts?
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Surely we are not yet blaming Obama for the fall 2008, prior to either his election or his inauguration financial bailouts? No, did you think I was? My point was that the Reps did the same thing (bailouts) as the Dems when faced with the crisis. So it doesn't seem to be something that we can really vote against Obama for since that would be essentially giving support to the Reps, who did the same thing. It wouldn't make sense. The reasons to not withhold a vote for Obama? Those same reasons exist for the Republicans. And the Republicans have managed to provide a few additional ones that are unique to them.
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Jazzns Member (Idle past 3942 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
I accept that they're critical of Obama, but I also feel that they will vote for Obama again. No chance these left leaning OWS'ers will vote republican. Which to me seems insane, to protest a bail out given by a president that they'll vote in again. Two of the primary things they are protesting are wealth inequality and the corporate influence in politics. How right is it to complain that they wont give Republicans a chance when that would lead to an exasperation of the problems they are protesting about? They haven't stopped being liberal. You also should remember that while Obama voted for the bail out, he did so in the oft lauded spirit of "bipartisanship". Note also that because he was able to VOTE for it that he did so as a senator under president Bush. Yes the OWSers are liberal and probably many voted for Obama. Many will likely hold their noses and do it again just like those on the right are going to do for Gingrich or Romney. Democracies don't generate perfect solutions and it is unfair to say that they are being inconsistent in their protest. Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.BUT if objects for gratitude and admiration are our desire, do they not present themselves every hour to our eyes? Do we not see a fair creation prepared to receive us the instant we are born --a world furnished to our hands, that cost us nothing? Is it we that light up the sun; that pour down the rain; and fill the earth with abundance? Whether we sleep or wake, the vast machinery of the universe still goes on. Are these things, and the blessings they indicate in future, nothing to, us? Can our gross feelings be excited by no other subjects than tragedy and suicide? Or is the gloomy pride of man become so intolerable, that nothing can flatter it but a sacrifice of the Creator? --Thomas Paine
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Modulous writes: NoNukes writes:
No, did you think I was? Surely we are not yet blaming Obama for the fall 2008, prior to either his election or his inauguration financial bailouts? I did not think that. I suppose I could have found a different place to attach my comment...
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