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Author | Topic: The Awesome Obama Thread II | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
And the country of Afghanistan did not attack us. No, it did. The Taliban, which was the ruling government of Afghanistan, gave aid and harbor to bin Laden and the al-Qaeda soldiers who attacked us. That's a matter of historical fact. We were attacked by Afghanistan via al-Qaeda proxies.
Now, I understand you didn't say Iraq DID attack the US, but you could be explicit and indicate that is WAS immoral and illegal for america to attack Iraq. It was, likely, not illegal since Saddam had violated the terms of the cease-fire. But it was certainly against American interests to have done so. Saddam was contained; there was no reason to invade.
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
Rahvin writes: I don't recall anyone suggesting otherwise with regard to Vietnam. Then I am still misunderstanding. (The Oni joke was funny, thanks)
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
You're saying ending the Vietnam war was BAD? I'm saying that the way it was ended was worse than continuing it.
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
Crash writes: We were attacked by Afghanistan via al-Qaeda proxies. 16 out of the 19 9/11 highjackers were . . . Saudi Arabian. Al-Queda was based in . . . . . Saudi Arabia. If the terrorists were the REAL reason for attacking Afghanistan, why don't you include Saudi Arabia in your faulty equation.
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Perdition Member (Idle past 3267 days) Posts: 1593 From: Wisconsin Joined:
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I hate that SENATOR Obama and president Obama (who swore an oath to protect the constitution and its laws) protects Bush Jr from criminal investigation (I have repeatedly wrote about how PRESIDENT Obama intervened in Spain on Bush's account. It doesn't seem to bother any one else). I used to have daydreams about Obama being sworn in then immediately turning to Bush and Cheney and saying "Arrest those men." However, impeachment was never a real possibility. I smiled every time it was introduced (a couple times I believe) but never expected it to pass. There just weren't enough votes, and in that case, voting for it would have been a waste of time. It would have been political hara-kiri.
No, Obama did not inherit the wars. SENATOR Obama helped create the wars by funding EVERY war vote (the Vietnam war ended simply because congress stopped funding it). And, as a SENATOR, not supporting the articles of impeachment against Bush Jr. PRESIDENT Obama inheritied the wars. They were ongoing when he was sworn in. SENATOR Obama was operating under different rules. I'm totally against the Iraq War. I'm a bit more agnostic on the merits of the Afghanistan War. Had I been in office, I would have voted against the AUMF. Once it passed, however, I probably would have ended up voting for funding. Why? Because defunding it with American servicemen and women in harm's way would have been a disaster. When a car is out of control, slamming on the brakes is often the worst thing you can do, you need to apply slow pressure and try to steer your trajectory back under control. Often in the real world, your ideals come into conflict, both with each other and with the situation as it is. Sticking to your ideals may seem praiseworthy, but if it results in a worse outcome, then your ideals mean nothing. It takes an intelligent and strong person to be able to navigate that sort of mine field, especially on the scale of a war, and they are bound to make mistakes.
In effect, you are offering me the steering wheel AFTER the car has left the cliff. (I suppose I can now at least take my foot off the gas pedal.) Outside of america, the US has no credibility and are seen as immoral and illegal invaders. The UN is not perfect, but it is a better choice. The quicker the changeover the better. Exactly. This is the position PRESIDENT Obama found himself in. You are now criticizing his actions since being elected. I'm just curious as to how you would have gone about it, had you been placed in his position in January of 2009.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
16 out of the 19 9/11 highjackers were . . . Saudi Arabian. Al-Queda was based in . . . . . Saudi Arabia. And? So what? The 9/11 attacks were planned in Afghanistan, ordered from Afghanistan, by bin Laden who was supported by the Taliban in Afghanistan. You really think there was no connection between Afghanistan and 9/11? That we just invaded a country at random?
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
Crash writes: I'm saying that the way it was ended was worse than continuing it. During the VN war, THREE MILLION VIETNAMESE DIED. You think it was better to continue that bloodletting? This is a huge different topic. Please, if you need to, take ONE last reply and start a different thread if you feel like it.
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
Crash writes: You really think there was no connection between Afghanistan and 9/11? That we just invaded a country at random? If you think that I believe america chose Afghanistan randomly to invade, then you haven't been paying attention to any of my posts.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
You think it was better to continue that bloodletting? I think that an orderly withdrawal would have been better than the hasty, clumsy withdrawal prompted by Congress' defunding of the war. Who said anything about continuing the "bloodletting"?
This is a huge different topic. No, it's just another example of how you don't know what you're talking about.
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
Perd writes: Exactly. This is the position PRESIDENT Obama found himself in. You are now criticizing his actions since being elected. I'm just curious as to how you would have gone about it, had you been placed in his position in January of 2009. Is my type appearing blue on a blue background and it can't be read? To re-re-reiterate . . . Obama had desperately tried to EXTEND the Iraq war occupation. I correctly predicted it when I argued Kerusa years ago on this forum. If precedence continues, Obama will try, somehow, to extend the Afghanistan occupation (unless Obama has invaded Iran in the near future, then . . . ?). I've read rumors Obama is trying to lock in 10 year military base agreements, so don't be surprised. Everyone have a good weekend, heard the weather in the NE is gonna be real good.
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Perdition Member (Idle past 3267 days) Posts: 1593 From: Wisconsin Joined: |
Is my type appearing blue on a blue background and it can't be read? To re-re-reiterate . . . Apparently mine is as well. I'm asking for your plan, not merely pointing to the things Obama did that you disagree with. Tell me what you would have done with both the Iraq and Afghanistan wars from January 2009.
I've read rumors Obama is trying to lock in 10 year military base agreements, so don't be surprised. This is SOP. We still have bases in Germany. We still have bases in Italy. We still have bases in South Korea. I would hope any bases built would be approved by the Afghani government. It would then give us a base of operations to continue trying to round up Al Qaeda cells in the area. It would also help us to continue helping the Afghani police and military secure their own country, should they ask for help.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2980 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined:
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And? So what? The 9/11 attacks were planned in Afghanistan, ordered from Afghanistan, by bin Laden who was supported by the Taliban in Afghanistan. Good little sheep, good. Don't foget to tell him it was all planned out from a cave, too. One guy, a mastermind if you will. An evil mastermind from a wacky religion who hates freedom planned and orchestrated the entire event, from a cave, in Afghanistan. "Go back to bed, America, your government is in control." - Oni
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Obama had desperately tried to EXTEND the Iraq war occupation. "Desperately"?
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Omnivorous Member Posts: 3991 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 6.9 |
Hi, Rahvin.
I'll get to a reply later when I have a few moments. Right now the thread is moving at more-heat-than-light speed, and I don't like to move that way anymore. Back soon."If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.5
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nwr writes: On the other hand, I disagreed with our invasion of Afghanistan. crashfrog writes:
What's to elaborate? It should have been obvious all along, that we cannot solve the problems of Afghanistan. Only the Afghan people can do that.I wonder if you could elaborate. Jesus was a liberal hippie
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