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Member (Idle past 94 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Trickle Down Economics - Does It Work? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
hooah212002 Member (Idle past 829 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
{abe}
I should also note that I wasn't quite referring to any particular graph when I responded to Percy. If you have a teenager living in your house making minimum wage, I wonder if that counts towards the household income or not. And if the household isn't poor, then why does it matter what wage the teenager is making? Did your parents take money from you when you were a teenager to pay household bills? Did your income count towards the "household" income? I know mine didn't, but I'm sure some families would do that. However, I was talking more about actual children, which is why I said children and not teenagers.
Which makes it even wierder that they compare those to the minimum wage. Well, I would say because there are a vast number of single income families, especially in the lower income brackets. Be that due to single parent homes, or not being able to afford a sitter. These single income families happen to also only be making minimum wage. However, economics isn't quite my strong suite and I haven't been able to keep up with much of this thread. It's pretty far over my head for the most part. A lot of what I say will be from an extreme laypersons perspective. Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given."Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
CS writes: Right, so how is the top getting warmer causing the bottom to get warmer too so difficult to understand as a trickle down effect? CS writes of me:
CS writes: Everything you post is a joke. The irony. It burns. Which causes the same burning feeling a poor Bedouin of the Sahara feels. (Known widely as the "trickle-eastern" theory.)
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 312 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
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Well thanks for the graphs of the average temperature... I thought you were going to graph what people were feeling. We all know rich people just sit around inside all day in the air-conditioning. I think you'll find that the weather has an effect on the temperatures people experience.
You're just assuming the conclusion. Don't tell me what I'm doing, especially if you're going to be flagrantly wrong.
How do you know that the same thing pertains to TDE? I didn't claim to such knowledge; I was challenging the people who were "assuming the conclusion" that it didn't.
Oh, and you changed your conclusion which used to be this: That was sarcasm. For fuck's sake.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I think you'll find that the weather has an effect on the temperatures people experience. I have no idea what the weather's like... I've been sitting in here experiencing 72 degrees all day. Although, since the AC's running I can figure its prolly hotter out there.
Don't tell me what I'm doing, especially if you're going to be flagrantly wrong. Well I didn't see where you actually concluded it apart from just stating it.
I didn't claim to such knowledge; I was challenging the people who were "assuming the conclusion" that it didn't. So does TDE work or not?
That was sarcasm. For fuck's sake. Mine too, silly.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
CS writes: Everything you post is a joke. The irony. It burns. That's not irony, stupid. I've not said that I never post anything that is a joke. And there's plenty of examples of my posts that aren't jokes. For you, not so much.
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Percy Member Posts: 22502 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Hi Theodoric,
I described the poor at the top of my message:
""The poor" is a fairly diverse group, cutting across multiple categories. Some poor work but have low incomes. Some poor are disabled and can't work to earn enough money or can't even work at all. Some poor are elderly. Some poor have too many children or live in a region too expensive for their income. Some poor have debts. Some poor have expensive medical issues. Some have legal issues.' My later comment that many of the poor are not employed was not meant as a derogatory comment. I was just providing the reason that the bottom quintile is resistant to benefit from an improving economy. Obviously referring to the unemployed as non-participants in the economy was a poor choice of words. Interestingly, an improving economy that brings increasing employment to the bottom quintile lowers median family income, which is the line on Straggler's graph against which top 5% income is being compared. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22502 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Straggler writes: If increased prosperity for all is not the measure of success by which we judge economic policies whose primary claim is that they will benefit all - What is? How do you think we should assess whether trickle down policies work or not? The "for all" portion is part of the problem, and "prosperity" is the other. By the "for all" criteria no economic policy will ever work. And "prosperity" means flourishing, successful, which would be nice, but the way you compare two economic policies is to determine which would provide the most improvement. If we get to "prosperity" that would just be a bonus. I believe that evidence disproving trickle-down economics does not exist, especially not in this thread. Some have interpreted this to mean that I believe trickle-down economics does work, but that is incorrect. To this point we haven't reached a consensus about what "works" means, and that seems to me a necessary first step. I'm now realizing that you would probably like more detailed criteria that measures how evenly the benefit is distributed throughout the economy, which would be fine by me. --Percy
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1495 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
And "prosperity" means flourishing, successful, which would be nice, but the way you compare two economic policies is to determine which would provide the most improvement. Well, ok; so what does "improvement" mean?
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9199 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
Did your parents take money from you when you were a teenager to pay household bills? Did your income count towards the "household" income? I started working at 12 an I contributed part of my paycheck to the household. We were poor. My father worked 60 hours a week and until 1980 never made more than $18,000/year. After that when iw as in college he finished his education and had enough experience that he could get a good paying job. He maxed out about $60k when he retired at 72. Guess I would have made Newt proud. Cause in college I cleaned the dishes and toilets of the other students I went to school with. T o make it clear my parents never took money from me. It was just what was expected and right. I have never thought of it as them taking my money, but my contribution to the family.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 312 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
So does TDE work or not? Well, I've yet to see any evidence that it works. And given that, and given that most economic panaceas devised by our over-sanguine species have not worked, the balance of probability is that it doesn't.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Theodoric writes: Before 1980, $18,000 a year was an upper middle class income. The poor made quite a bit less than 10k a year. We were poor. My father worked 60 hours a week and until 1980 never made more than $18,000/year. Just for perspective, lets plug $10,000.00 into the Inflation Calculator where we find that $10,000 in 1980 is the equivalent of nearly $28,000.00 in todays money. I suppose that poor is a matter of perspective.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9199 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
In 1980 I was 20 years old. The 18k does not reflect my childhood. At that time my father was moving up the ranks. I used the date and amount to give a perspective of moving forward. Do you think 50k for a family of 6 is upper middle class?
I suppose that poor is a matter of perspective.
I suppose judging other peoples experiences with a tiny bit of info is stupid.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 829 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
Even sillier still is basing anything on how much someone makes annually prior to taxes and other things that are immediately taken out of your paycheck (child support in my case, which is nearly $500/mo). I know of no one that doesn't live paycheck to paycheck, so what ones "annual salary" is, is useless.
"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
So does TDE work or not? Well, I've yet to see any evidence that it works. Nevermind, I see from your other posts where you've talked about that. From Message 39:
It has scarcely become easier for the poor to buy food and heat; it has not become easier for the average family to buy health insurance or to send their kids to college. Making the rich richer has not made everyone richer, it has left many people just the same --- or worse. So much for "trickle down". How do you know that? It seems to me that everyone *is* doing better than 40 years ago, or whatever... that it *is* easier for the poor to get food and heat, and more people are going to college. Too, the median household income has steadily risen. I don't see how things are worse. Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
CS writes: That's not irony, stupid. quote: Stupid.
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