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Author Topic:   Discussing carbon 14 in fossils
CoolBeans
Member (Idle past 963 days)
Posts: 196
From: Honduras
Joined: 02-11-2013


Message 16 of 25 (690596)
02-14-2013 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by NoNukes
02-14-2013 2:09 PM


Re: One rebuttal
What do you think of this paper?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by NoNukes, posted 02-14-2013 2:09 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Coyote, posted 02-15-2013 12:24 AM CoolBeans has responded
 Message 19 by Coyote, posted 02-15-2013 12:31 AM CoolBeans has not yet responded
 Message 22 by NoNukes, posted 02-16-2013 11:57 AM CoolBeans has not yet responded

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5540
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.6


(3)
Message 17 of 25 (690655)
02-15-2013 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by CoolBeans
02-14-2013 2:12 PM


Another rebuttal
Since you have linked to an article with a veritable Gish gallop of nonsense, here is another creationist talking point on C14 that is completely rebutted. (I have more if you want; if you dare.)

Claim:

Coal from Russia from the “Pennsylvanian,” supposedly 300 million years old, was dated at 1,680 years. (Radiocarbon, vol. 8, 1966) Source

Analysis:

False information due to sloppy research.

This is a difficult reference to track down because the actual page number is not provided. It appears that each creationist website just copies from the previous without checking the original citation. (The information in question is on page 319.)

The original source for the false information seems to be Ken Ham, Andrew Snelling, and Carl Weiland’s The Answers Book, published by Master Books, El Cajon, CA, in 1992 (page 73).

The original article in the journal Radiocarbon includes the following paragraph describing this sample:

Mo-334. River Naryn, Kirgizia — 1680 ± 170. A.D. 270

Coal from the cultural layer on the left side of the r. Naryn (Kirgizian SSR), 3 km E of the mourh of the r. Alabuga (41° 25′ N Lat, 74° 40′ E Long). The sample was found at a depth of 7.6 m in the form of scattered coals in a loamy rock in deposits of a 26-m terrace. According to the archaeological estimations the sample dates from the 5 to 7th centuries A.D. The sample was found by K. V. Kurdyumov (Moscow State Univ.) in 1962. Comment: the find serves as a verification of archaeological data on the peopling of the Tien Shan.

What we have here is no more than shorthand or sloppy translation from the Russian! The coal is nothing more than charcoal from an archaeological deposit. This sample is even included in the section of the report dealing with archaeological samples, and the paragraph discusses archaeological data.

The odd use of terms is shown clearly in another radiocarbon date, Mo-353, reported on page 315 of the same article. It reads “Charcoal from cultural deposits of a fisher site. The coal was coll. from subturfic humified loam…”

But the term “coal” in place of “charcoal” was enough to fool Ken Ham, as well as dozens of subsequent creationists who apparently were salivating to find 300 million year old coal radiocarbon dated to recent times, and who repeated Ham’s false claim without bothering to check its accuracy.

The interesting question is where Ken Ham managed to find “Pennsylvanian” in that short paragraph, and where he dug up the date of 300 million years.

This is still another case where a creationist claim about science falls apart when examined more closely.

Reference

Vinogradov, A.P.; A.L. Devirts; E.I. Dobinka; and N.G. Markova. Radiocarbon dating in the Vernadsky Institute I-IV. Radiocarbon, Vol 8, 1966, pp. 292-323.

http://blog.darwincentral.org/...%E2%80%9D-%E2%80%94-part-iv

Want more?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by CoolBeans, posted 02-14-2013 2:12 PM CoolBeans has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by CoolBeans, posted 02-15-2013 12:30 AM Coyote has responded

  
CoolBeans
Member (Idle past 963 days)
Posts: 196
From: Honduras
Joined: 02-11-2013


Message 18 of 25 (690656)
02-15-2013 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Coyote
02-15-2013 12:24 AM


Re: Another rebuttal
Cool.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Coyote, posted 02-15-2013 12:24 AM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Coyote, posted 02-15-2013 12:38 AM CoolBeans has not yet responded

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5540
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.6


(3)
Message 19 of 25 (690657)
02-15-2013 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by CoolBeans
02-14-2013 2:12 PM


OK, one more rebuttal
Here is still another rebuttal to a claim by creationists, one which you can find all over the web. This is one of the main creationist "proofs" that C14 dating is inaccurate.

Claim:

Natural gas from Alabama and Mississippi (Cretaceous and Eocene, respectively) — should have been 50 to 135 million years old. C14 gave dates of 30,000 and 34,000, respectively. Source

Analysis:

False information due to sloppy research and lack of familiarity with radiocarbon dating.

This was another difficult reference to track down because the original source is not provided. It appears that each creationist website just copies from the previous without checking the original citation. (The information in question originates in Radiocarbon, Vol. 8, page 200.)

The original source for the false information seems to be Ken Ham, Andrew Snelling, and Carl Weiland’s The Answers Book, published by Master Books, El Cajon, CA, in 1992 (page 73).

The original article in the journal Radiocarbon includes the following paragraphs describing these two samples:

I-1149. Sealy Springs well, Alabama — >34,000

From Sealy Springs Well, Cottonwood, Houston County, Alabama. Well yielding salt water and natural gas, probably from Upper Cretaceous Eutaw sandstone. Comment (D.R.B.): sample submitted as control. Infinite age as expected.

I-1150. Maxie Gas Field, Mississippi — >30,000

From Lower and Upper Cretaceous, and Eocene formations in Maxie Gas Field, Forrest County, Mississippi. Comment (D.R.B.): control sample yielding infinite age as expected.

Note the little “>” symbols in front of the dates? This means “greater than” and denotes that the measured ages reflect the limits of the instrumentation rather than an actual age. In other words, the creationists either goofed and missed the “>” symbols, or hoped that nobody would check up on their research.

Rather than serving as an example of the inaccuracy of radiocarbon dating, this refuted creationist claim serves as another example of the inaccuracy of creationist research.

Reference

Trautman, Milton A. and Eric H. Willis. Isotopes, Inc. Radiocarbon Measurements V. Radiocarbon, Vol. 8, 1966, pp. 161-203.


http://blog.darwincentral.org/...e%E2%80%9D-%E2%80%94-part-v

Want more?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by CoolBeans, posted 02-14-2013 2:12 PM CoolBeans has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5540
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.6


(4)
Message 20 of 25 (690658)
02-15-2013 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by CoolBeans
02-15-2013 12:30 AM


OK, just one more then it's bedtime
Another standard creationist claim, found all over the web, totally rebutted. (Want more?)

Claim:

“Some time ago eleven human skeletons, remains of the earliest humans in the western hemisphere, were dated by this new `accelerator mass spectrometer’ technique to about 5000 radiocarbon years or less. [R.E.Taylor, `Major Revisions in the Pleistocene Age Assignments for the North American Human Skeletons by C-14 Accelerator Mass Spectrometry', American Antiquity, Vol. 50, No.1, 1985, pp. 136-140] Source

Analysis:

False information due to sloppy research and lack of familiarity with archaeology, amino acid racemization dating, and radiocarbon dating.

This claim seems to have originated with Walter T. Brown’s In the Beginning (1989), p. 95.

The major mistake made here is assuming that the original dates, all by amino acid racemization, were accurate, and the newer radiocarbon dates were wrong–probably out of a wish to show errors in the radiocarbon method. The opposite is true: the Taylor et al. article, by redating these specimens using the AMS method of radiocarbon dating, corrected the earlier, erroneous amino acid racemization age estimates.

But through lack of familiarity with science in general and these fields in particular, this correction of inaccurate amino acid racemization age estimates has been morphed by creationists into a condemnation of the radiocarbon dating method — a result the exact opposite of what the research actually showed! It was radiocarbon dating that corrected the earlier errors!

Are creationists so desperate to discredit dating methods that they are deliberately misrepresenting the actual facts, or are they just doing sloppy research? Probably the latter, but this practice is so common that one wonders.

Reference

Taylor, R.E., et al., Major Revisions in the Pleistocene Age Assignments for North American Human Skeletons by C-14 Accelerator Mass Spectrometry: None Older Than 11,000 C-14 Years B.P. American Antiquity, Vol. 50, No. 1, 1983, pp. 136-140.

http://blog.darwincentral.org/...%E2%80%9D-%E2%80%94-part-vi


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by CoolBeans, posted 02-15-2013 12:30 AM CoolBeans has not yet responded

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1479
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 21 of 25 (690659)
02-15-2013 12:52 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Coyote
02-14-2013 2:21 AM


Re: One rebuttal
Thanks Coyote, I'll do that relatively soon. The salt mines are calling.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Coyote, posted 02-14-2013 2:21 AM Coyote has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9320
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 22 of 25 (690819)
02-16-2013 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by CoolBeans
02-14-2013 2:12 PM


Re: One rebuttal
What do you think of this paper?

I'm no expert on C14 dating, but I did notice that the paper lists a bunch of reasons that the produce errors, and then doesn't even bother to address the complete list. Why then would I respect their conclusion that dinosaurs cannot have died 65 million years ago?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by CoolBeans, posted 02-14-2013 2:12 PM CoolBeans has not yet responded

    
CoolBeans
Member (Idle past 963 days)
Posts: 196
From: Honduras
Joined: 02-11-2013


Message 23 of 25 (692560)
03-04-2013 11:43 PM


I would like that a person would argue better for there position. I dont think I will be able to represent them.
Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Pressie, posted 03-04-2013 11:51 PM CoolBeans has not yet responded
 Message 25 by Coyote, posted 03-05-2013 12:18 AM CoolBeans has not yet responded

    
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1479
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 24 of 25 (692561)
03-04-2013 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by CoolBeans
03-04-2013 11:43 PM


People here asked for evidence for their claims. Not for arguments. Anyone can make any claim about anything and everything.

Unfortunately for you, that's all your references had. Claims.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by CoolBeans, posted 03-04-2013 11:43 PM CoolBeans has not yet responded

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5540
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 25 of 25 (692563)
03-05-2013 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by CoolBeans
03-04-2013 11:43 PM


C-14 dating is inaccurate, and other creationists myths
I would like that a person would argue better for there position. I dont think I will be able to represent them.

If, by "there (sic) position" you mean supporting that paper on C-14 dating that was linked above, I wouldn't worry about it.

It was junk start to finish, following in a long tradition of junk being posted by creationists regarding C-14 dating.

I did several posts discussing some creationist claims, and showing how wrong they were.

What more do you want? My posts demonstrated the level of research and accuracy of the creationists--and if you research the web you'll still find those refuted claims all over the place!

After that, do you still have any faith in those goofs?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by CoolBeans, posted 03-04-2013 11:43 PM CoolBeans has not yet responded

  
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