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Author Topic:   Cold Fusion ... again?
RAZD
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From: the other end of the sidewalk
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Message 1 of 12 (699788)
05-25-2013 12:35 PM


Cold fusion reactor independently verified, has 10,000 times the energy density of gas

quote:
Against all probability, a device that purports to use cold fusion to generate vast amounts of power has been verified by a panel of independent scientists. The research paper, which hasn’t yet undergone peer review, seems to confirm both the existence of cold fusion, and its potency: The cold fusion device being tested has roughly 10,000 times the energy density and 1,000 times the power density of gasoline. ...

... While Rossi hasn’t provided much in the way of details — he’s a very secretive man, it seems — we can infer some knowledge from NASA’s own research into cold fusion. Basically, hydrogen ions (single protons) are sucked into a nickel lattice (pictured right); the nickel’s electrons are forced into the hydrogen to produce neutrons; the nickel nuclei absorb these neutrons; the neutrons are stripped of their electrons to become protons; and thus the nickel goes up in atomic number from 28 to 29, becoming copper.

... As far as we can tell, the main barrier to cold fusion — as with normal fusion — is producing more energy than you put in. In NASA’s tests, it takes a lot more energy to fuse the nickel and hydrogen than is produced by the reaction. Rossi, it would seem, has discovered a secret sauce that significantly reduces the amount of energy required to start the reaction. ...

If Rossi and Focardi’s cold fusion technology turns out to be real — if the E-Cat really has 10,000 times the energy density and 1,000 times the power density of gasoline — then the world will change, very, very quickly. Stay tuned; we’ll let you know when — or if — the E-Cat passes peer review.


Until then I'll be waiting patiently for more information ...

Enjoy.

Edited by RAZD, : .


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 10 by NoNukes, posted 05-28-2013 2:47 PM RAZD has responded

  
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Message 2 of 12 (699790)
05-25-2013 1:21 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Cold Fusion ... again? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
NoNukes
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From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 3 of 12 (699792)
05-25-2013 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
05-25-2013 12:35 PM


While Rossi hasn’t provided much in the way of details — he’s a very secretive man, it seems — we can infer some knowledge from NASA’s own research into cold fusion.

The only reasons I can come up with for maintaining secrecy on a working device is maintaining patent rights on the invention and perpetrating a fraud. And a patent application filing would result in the details being public within 18 months.

Of course I'm a patent attorney and the above is how I think. But I cannot imagine a way to exploit such a device that would not result in every engineer with a wrench and a voltmeter being able to find out any secret required to make the thing work in very short order.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


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Tangle
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Message 4 of 12 (699793)
05-25-2013 2:24 PM


It's got to be bollocks, if it was real, he wouldn't be behaving like a dick.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Catalyzer


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

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Percy
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Posts: 16035
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 5 of 12 (699797)
05-25-2013 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by NoNukes
05-25-2013 2:23 PM


Bu once the patent application is filed aren't public announcements protected? "Patent pending" and all that? Isn't the only risk that the patent might not eventually be granted, which seems terribly unlikely for a device like this, though of course I agree with Tangle that it's total bollocks.

This reminds me of a very recent little dust-up that just happened. A couple days ago The Guardian published this:

Eric Weinstein may have found the answer to physics' biggest problems

It was immediately questioned, primarily because of the way the "breakthrough" was handled:

Dear Guardian: You’ve Been Played

This relatively brief comment from New Scientist is also good:

Weinstein's theory of everything is probably nothing

I think"shenanigans" was an appropriate adjective, and dramatic scientific breakthroughs are rarely if ever dressed in shenanigans.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by NoNukes, posted 05-25-2013 2:23 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
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Posts: 9998
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 6 of 12 (699801)
05-25-2013 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Percy
05-25-2013 3:25 PM


Bu once the patent application is filed aren't public announcements protected?

In what way are you suggesting that public announcements are protected? I'm not sure I understand your proposition. I'm guessing you are suggesting that we cannot exploit revealed technology once an application is filed. But that's not correct. The patent won't affect uses that occur before the patent issues (with some exceptions only applicable in the US).

It is true that public demonstrations made after the application is filed won't prevent the patent from issuing.

As for the risk that the patent won't issue. The alternative is to try and maintain the invention as a trade secret. I don't believe it would be possible to do so. Trade secret law generally does not prevent someone from reverse engineering a product to learn the secret.

I think it would be extraordinarily difficult to get a patent for cold fusion through the US patent office because the PTO is predisposed to believe that cold fusion is as bollocks as perpetual motion. The PTO would almost certainly insist on a demonstration evaluated by experts of its selection, which is something that they never require for other inventions.

I think we are all in agreement that the circumstances suggest shenanigans rather than an actual breakthrough.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Percy, posted 05-25-2013 3:25 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Percy, posted 05-25-2013 4:37 PM NoNukes has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9998
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 7 of 12 (699802)
05-25-2013 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Tangle
05-25-2013 2:24 PM


if it was real, he wouldn't be behaving like a dick.

yes.

I thought this story sounded familiar. The only thing new about this is the report of independent test results. Here is what that wikipedia article says about the testing of the Energy Catalyzer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Catalyzer

quote:

In May 2013 a non-peer-reviewed paper describing "results obtained from evaluations of the operation of the E-Cat HT in two test runs" was submitted to the arxiv digital archive.[61] Although the authors of the paper wrote that they were not in control of all of the aspects of the process, they concluded that, even by the most conservative of measurements, the device produced excess heat with a resulting energy density that was at least one order of magnitude—and possibly several—higher than any other conventional energy source, including gasoline.[62][63][64]

Astrophysicist Ethan Siegel commented at scienceblogs saying Rossi did not allow the reactants or products to be measured on this occasion. despite that in the previous tests there was not enough Nickel-62 and Nickel-64 (the only two isotopes which can fuse with hydrogen), at 3.6% and 0.9% respectively, in the reactants to explain the 10% copper output and the 10% copper had the ratio found in nature, not after fusion. According to Siegel, Rossi also refused to unplug the machine while it was operating despite it being an easy way to surreptitiously power the device. He also added that the supposedly independent testers had to rely on data supplied by Rossi.



Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Tangle, posted 05-25-2013 2:24 PM Tangle has not yet responded

    
Percy
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Posts: 16035
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 8 of 12 (699803)
05-25-2013 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by NoNukes
05-25-2013 4:24 PM


NoNukes writes:

In what way are you suggesting that public announcements are protected? I'm not sure I understand your proposition. I'm guessing you are suggesting that we cannot exploit revealed technology once an application is filed. But that's not correct. The patent won't affect uses that occur before the patent issues (with some exceptions only applicable in the US).

I'm only asking, not claiming I know anything for certain. I'm only familiar with US law, and only what I learned in the class that one of the company's attorneys gave (he covered trade secrets, too) combined with the established practices that we have to follow. We don't disclose to customers (which we're told constitutes a public disclosure) until after we've filed the patent application. Because of this practice I assumed that any uses of our invention were protected after the application was filed, else we would have had to wait until after the patent was granted before disclosing to customers.

I think it would be extraordinarily difficult to get a patent for cold fusion through the US patent office because the PTO is predisposed to believe that cold fusion is as bollocks as perpetual motion.

Yeah, the analogy to perpetual motion machines occurred to me, too.

--Percy


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 Message 6 by NoNukes, posted 05-25-2013 4:24 PM NoNukes has responded

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 Message 9 by NoNukes, posted 05-25-2013 5:12 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9998
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 9 of 12 (699806)
05-25-2013 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Percy
05-25-2013 4:37 PM


Because of this practice I assumed that any uses of our invention were protected after the application was filed, else we would have had to wait until after the patent was granted before disclosing to customers.

Your wording was that the 'announcements are protected' which could mean a few things. What is actually the case is that the invention and the associated patent rights are protected being lost by a public announcement or pubic use. It was likely the international patent rights that your attorneys were worried about being lost. Under US law, there used to be a 1 year grace period protecting against loss of rights by public disclosure. US law on this has changed very recently, but you do need to file before anyone else does.

Under US law, once an application is filed, and then publishes 18 months later, there is a limited right to pursue damages arising after the publication date assuming that the patent does issue. But that right has some important restrictions[1], and the recovery is limited to a royalty payment. By contrast, after the patent issues, the patentee can prevent usage of his invention, and can recover much more extensive damage awards. I am not aware of any circumstance where pre-issue damages have been awarded by a US court.

Outside of the US, protection is strictly based on activity that occurs after the patent issues.

[1] The most important restriction was that you could not modify the patent claims before issue without losing the right to pursue pre-issue damages. But the vast majority of issued patents require modifications to the claims prior to issue.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Percy, posted 05-25-2013 4:37 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9998
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 10 of 12 (699943)
05-28-2013 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
05-25-2013 12:35 PM


While Rossi hasn’t provided much in the way of details — he’s a very secretive man, it seems — we can infer some knowledge from NASA’s own research into cold fusion.

Rossi already has an Italian patent on his work, and has also filed international applications on the same invention. There should not be anything left to be secretive about.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 05-25-2013 12:35 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by RAZD, posted 05-29-2013 11:19 AM NoNukes has responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19089
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 11 of 12 (700007)
05-29-2013 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by NoNukes
05-28-2013 2:47 PM


Rossi already has an Italian patent on his work, and has also filed international applications on the same invention. There should not be anything left to be secretive about.

So we should all invest heavily now?

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by NoNukes, posted 05-28-2013 2:47 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by NoNukes, posted 05-29-2013 10:49 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9998
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 12 of 12 (700071)
05-29-2013 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by RAZD
05-29-2013 11:19 AM


So we should all invest heavily now?

Uh, heck yeah! Rossi has a complete monopoly on his version of cold fusion everywhere in Italy. And no one but him will ever have similar rights in most countries in the world.

He owns 100 percent of what indications point to as being zip diddly jack. Don't get left out.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by RAZD, posted 05-29-2013 11:19 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

    
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