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Author Topic:   By Golly, Benghazi
onifre
Member (Idle past 901 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(1)
Message 46 of 50 (701913)
06-27-2013 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Coyote
06-27-2013 2:58 PM


I'm libertarian. Not the same thing at all.

It's called New Republican, and it's totally the same thing.

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Coyote, posted 06-27-2013 2:58 PM Coyote has not yet responded

    
Coyote
Member (Idle past 57 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 47 of 50 (701917)
06-27-2013 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by dronestar
06-27-2013 3:16 PM


drone writes:

Libertarians advocate a society with a greatly reduced state or no state at all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism

Nice quote mine! That effort would make a creationist blush with shame!

Below are the first five paragraphs of the wiki article, with the little tiny part you quoted highlighted in yellow.

Libertarianism (Latin: liber, "free")[1] is a set of related political philosophies that uphold liberty as the highest political end.[2][3] This includes emphasis on the primacy of individual liberty,[4][5] political freedom, and voluntary association. It is the antonym to authoritarianism.[6] Libertarians advocate a society with a greatly reduced state or no state at all.[7]

The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy defines libertarianism as the moral view that agents initially fully own themselves and have certain moral powers to acquire property rights in external things.[8] Libertarian philosopher Roderick Long defines libertarianism as "any political position that advocates a radical redistribution of power from the coercive state to voluntary associations of free individuals", whether "voluntary association" takes the form of the free market or of communal co-operatives.[9] According to the U.S. Libertarian Party, libertarianism is the advocacy of a government that is funded voluntarily and limited to protecting individuals from coercion and violence.[10][11]

Libertarian schools of thought differ over the degree to which the state should have a role.[7] Anarchist schools advocate complete elimination of the state. Minarchist schools advocate a state which is limited to protecting its citizens from aggression, theft, breach of contract, and fraud. Some schools accept government assistance for the poor.[12] Additionally, some schools are supportive of private property rights in the ownership of unappropriated land and natural resources while others reject such private ownership and support various forms of left-libertarianism.[13][14][15]

Some political scholars assert that in most countries the terms "libertarian" and "libertarianism" are synonymous with anarchism, and some express disapproval of capitalists calling themselves libertarians.[16] Conversely, other academics as well as proponents of the free market perspectives argue that free-market libertarianism has been successfully propagated beyond the U.S. since the 1970s via think tanks and political parties[17][18] and that "libertarianism" is increasingly viewed worldwide as a free market position.[19][20] Likewise, many libertarian capitalists disapprove of socialists calling themselves "libertarian."[9]

In the United States, where the meaning of liberalism has parted significantly from classical liberalism, classical liberalism has largely been renamed libertarianism and is associated with "economically conservative" and "socially liberal" political views (going by the common meanings of "conservative" and "liberal" in the United States),[21][22] along with a foreign policy of non-interventionism.[23][24]

I think that last paragraph describes my philosophy best.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by dronestar, posted 06-27-2013 3:16 PM dronestar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by dronestar, posted 06-27-2013 4:28 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
dronestar
Member (Idle past 290 days)
Posts: 1379
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


(1)
Message 48 of 50 (701919)
06-27-2013 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Coyote
06-27-2013 4:14 PM


Coyote writes:

Libertarianism (Latin: liber, "free")[1] is a set of related political philosophies that uphold liberty as the highest political end.[2][3] This includes emphasis on the primacy of individual liberty,[4][5] political freedom, and voluntary association. It is the antonym to authoritarianism.[6] Libertarians advocate a society with a greatly reduced state or no state at all.[7]

C'mon Coyote, stop being so paranoid. I am not trying to trick you via "quote mines."

I used that part (Libertarians advocate a society with a greatly reduced state or no state at all) because that was germane to my asking the following question:

So you wouldn't be inclined to vote for a political party that strives for a lesser intrusive government? Thus . . . If the republican party attacked Obama because Obama has demonstrated that he hates the constitution and especially the 4th amendment search and seizure laws, then you still wouldn't be more inclined to vote for the Republicans?

Can you comment on your answer?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Coyote, posted 06-27-2013 4:14 PM Coyote has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Rahvin, posted 06-27-2013 4:54 PM dronestar has responded

  
Rahvin
Member (Idle past 1137 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


(1)
Message 49 of 50 (701922)
06-27-2013 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by dronestar
06-27-2013 4:28 PM


So you wouldn't be inclined to vote for a political party that strives for a lesser intrusive government? Thus . . . If the republican party attacked Obama because Obama has demonstrated that he hates the constitution and especially the 4th amendment search and seizure laws, then you still wouldn't be more inclined to vote for the Republicans?

Can you comment on your answer?

Many who self-identify as libertarian do vote for parties other than the Republicans. And many who vote for the Republicans sorely dislike the candidate they vote for, and are merely taking the option that seems to be the least bad.

It's all a matter of priorities. Libertarianism is not a singular worldview. The general definition Coyote describes himself under could easily describe both individuals who vote Republican and those who vote otherwise - even Democrat. Most libertarians of whom I'm aware identify as "independent" voters...and simply vote Republican because it's the best they feel they can get.

The Republicans tend to gain libertarian votes because they advocate fiscal conservatism, and this is viewed as a more immediate or outright higher priority than social concerns like abortion or gay marriage by some libertarians. It's entirely possible, after all, even common, to like one aspect of a politician, and dislike other aspects, and still vote for him/her.

Other libertarians prioritize social liberty above fiscal conservativism, and may vote elsewhere when a Republican candidate calls for government intrusion on everyday life - as with bans on gay marriage, or attempts to overturn Roe v Wade.

Particularly unintelligent libertarians (and I'm not counting Coyote among their number) are often fooled by cries for "smaller government" by the Republicans, as if reduced social spending actually equates for less government interference or indeed even less government spending overall.

The average person is, of course, not particularly intelligent.

Look at Ron Paul for an example of a libertarian Republican. He directly opposes a great deal of the Republican platform. Even some who regularly vote Democrat, and many who identify as independent, supported him in the last few elections. They're just not all the same - and I would wager that the only reason they tend to (not always) stick with the Republicans is because the Republican party has money to spend on candidates who can throw out the right libertarian buzzwords and co-opt the movement, when most libertarians would much rather something significantly different.


The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by dronestar, posted 06-27-2013 4:28 PM dronestar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by dronestar, posted 06-27-2013 5:10 PM Rahvin has not yet responded

  
dronestar
Member (Idle past 290 days)
Posts: 1379
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


(1)
Message 50 of 50 (701924)
06-27-2013 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Rahvin
06-27-2013 4:54 PM


Rahvin writes:

The general definition Coyote describes himself under could easily describe both individuals who vote Republican and those who vote otherwise

Thanks for responding Rahvin, good job, but my specific query to Coyote remains unanswered.

I am unsure why Coyote furiously ran away from it. It is like I was asking for his PIN number to his credit card.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Rahvin, posted 06-27-2013 4:54 PM Rahvin has not yet responded

  
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