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Author | Topic: Why the Flood Never Happened | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
It's too easy Faith ...
The strata were never at the bottom of the sea, ever, except during the Flood. But you said the strata were laid down by the flood. Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Most of this entire thread is useless because of one simple fact: At 4,350 years ago we are dealing with soils, not rocks; sediments, not geological strata. Faith can hand-wave the dating all she wishes, but that doesn't change reality. If there was a global flood 4,350 years ago it would have been visible in soils that are 4,350 years old! One of the first things I learned in grad school (in archaeology) is that "If you want to find a 10,000 year old site, look in 10,000 year old dirt." ... AND we know that at 4,350 years ago there was no world wide flood, because there are currently 3 if not more Bristlecone pines alive today (or alive in 1965 when cut down to count rings) that are older than that. One is over 5,063 years old and possibly quite a bit older due to erosion of the windward side of the tree. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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and the need to cram extra rings into dendrochronologies and extra varves into lake sediments.
I'd love to see how mindspawn explains Cariaco basin with spring tides ... and then there are the ice cores ... so much fun so much time ... Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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In case none of you have noticed, I not arguing for the Flood at this point but against Old Earth theory and I believe the canyon area is evidence against OE theory. While ignoring the evidence of old age in the wind erosion of the rocks that leaves a patina over time, in the speleothems at different heights in the sides of the canyon that formed when the river level was at their height in the canyon and the caves they formed in were eroded out. Grand Canyon - Wikipedia
quote: That study found different age speleothems in different height caves in the walls of the canyon. The ages correlate with height in the canyon wall with higher cave speleothems being older than lower cave speleothems. Rapid erosion does not form caves. Thus you should agree that these caves formed after the canyon was cut. Slow erosion forms caves, especially where they are in limestone and dissolve in water or water with weak carbolic acid. Speleothems only form after the caves have been made and it takes time to deposit the layers of calcite (from Age of Grand Canyon and Cave Speleothems another thread Faith ran away from): How to Date the Grand Canyon: Go With the Flow | WIRED
quote: The speleothems can be dated because uranium is soluble in water but thorium and lead are not Thus one speleothem categorically disproves a young earth explanation for the canyon as a whole. The staggering of these up the canyon wall with different ages at different heights all show long term erosion of the canyon -- the time it took to cut from one level down to the next level down to the next, etc The canyon is old, very old, it formed by slow erosion. Get used to it. Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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The OBSERVABLE overall structure of the strata clearly disproves the Old Earth, which is engtirely a matter of interpretation, not observation, as is all the evidence you've come up with. I'll take mine. There are over 900 caves in the canyon walls Faith -- observed, documented demonstrated "disturbing" of the canyon by slow erosion ... AND The speleothems are observed, documented formations that take looooong time to form They are at different levels of the canyon wall and are different ages and the age and height correlate -- that isn't interpretation Faith that is observation of the evidence. You can't explain them with a young earth formation after a young earth creation of the canyon. Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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No Faith -- you have the problem
It's already figured out in my worldview system, because I have no problem with the world being old.
Yeah well the speleothems may take a LOOOOOOONNNNG time for form, but the Canyon itself couldn't have. So figure that one out. The speleothems are information that the canyon was still being formed when they were laid down. These type of speleothems form underwater, the cave erode from the sides of the canyon after it was cut to that level, So the level of the river was near the elevation of these formations when the caves formed and flooded the caves Then the speleothems formed Then the river cut deeper and the cave dried out, the speleothems dried out nd layer deposits stopped Lower down another cave formed and filled with water and another speleothem was formed and the river cut deeper and the cave dried out, the second speleothem dried out and layer deposits stopped Lower down another cave forms and the sequence is repeated again and down again and these caves do not form by rapid erosion -- rapid erosion leaves scoured sides -- carries large boulders that are massive grinders of walls and bottoms chewing out a wide flat channel (see scablands again) these cave branch away from the river into the sides of the canyon likely caused by water flowing through the rock eroding it away pools of water form in the cave and the speleothems form in the pools - underwater as the river cuts deeper into the ground the water table drops, the pools dry up and the speleothems stop growing. The age of each speleothem is greater than a young earth fantasy The ages between speleothems is greater than a young earth fantasy They form a consistent pattern of age and depth in the canyon walls consistent with long erosion of the canyon by the river we see today, still cutting, still eroding into the earth. The canyon formed over millions of years as an observable fact. Why do the speleothems have different ages that correlate so well with the long formation of the canyon Faith? Uranium is carried in water and so particles are in the water when the speleothems form, It gets incorporated with other minerals in the calcite formations, part of what gives them colors, and the uranium decays into thorium and lead, elements that are not soluble in water, so their presence inside the speleothems is due to uranium decay after the uranium was deposited. This observation of thorium and lead tells us how old the speleothems are. This decay occurred after your flood fantasy ended -- after the cave formed -- after the canyon was cut to that depth. Why are they so old, why is there so much age difference between them? Enjoy. Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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There were many volcanoes near the western end of the canyon, and the evidence of their existence is observable
Geologic Activity - Grand Canyon National Park (U.S. National Park Service)
quote: These are visible disturbances that have occurred in the area. How long does it take lava rock to erode away Faith? How long does it take to erode away 3 different lava dams that were over 1,000 feet high when the lava stopped flowing? http://www.sciencedaily.com/...ases/2008/02/080205100014.htm
quote: What water eroded through these lava dams, when you have the flood out-rush already used to carve the canyon is one massive fantasy flow cutting event -- you are now out of water to erode through one dam, to say nothing of 3 such major dams and several smaller ones. How do these erode except by slow geological erosion processes we see ongoing today? Not only have they been eroded away Faith, but the river has continued to cut into the bottom rock and the canyon now extends below the levels of these lava dams -- a bottom depth deeper than what was there when the dams formed. 'splain it to me. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : dby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Another thing to add to the Scientific vs Creationist Frauds and Hoaxes thread ...
Why do Creationists lie Faith? Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Unless I have a clear understanding of a problem of that sort I just don't deal with it at all Atheos, I've tried to explain that to you. I focus on my own favorite arguments which I think should prove the Flood and the wrongness of the OE, and that being the case all the other problems are secondary or irrelevant, as I've said. There's no point in continuing to badger me. There are two basic things that can interfere with clear understanding of a problem, one is a working knowledge of the field of science involved, including knowledge, use and understanding of the proper terminology. This can be achieved via education. The second is cognitive dissonance -- if a problem creates severe dissonance for a person it becomes difficult to wade through any description of the problem because your mind keeps rejecting things as 'just not possible' -- and frankly I don't know how to overcome this difficulty ... so condolences for anyone suffering this aspect, and I hope you find some reasonable resolution that allows for new information rather than blanket rejection. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Thanks Faith, I understand your reluctance.
But since EVERYTHING is interpreted in terms of OE theory it puts an enormous burden on a creationist to show how it's wrong. ... This is a false statement -- in science things are interpreted according to what the evidence says. When you don't restrain your conclusions to predetermined results, when you follow where the evidence leads, then you come to conclusions based on an approximation of reality. You can see this process in the history of science understanding of such things as gravity, where Aristotle argued that things fell at different speeds according to their weight. Galileo at the tower of Pisa (supposedly) proved this to be wrong. Galileo's Leaning Tower of Pisa experiment - Wikipedia Newton formalized his law of gravity as the force between two objects being positively related to the mass of each and inversely related to the distance between them:
F = GmM/d^2 And we now know that this is not completely correct, for instance it doesn't explain the orbit of Mercury properly. So we now have General Relativity ... and I won't bother you with the equations ... which takes care of Mercury but seems to have some other anomalies ... but we are getting closer. The age of the earth has a similar history. NOBODY started from a position that the earth must be old. One thing to consider: you can't have evidence that shows great age in a young earth unless the evidence is illusory, lying -- evidence that is part of creation. You can have evidence of young parts of the earth in an old universe\earth ... volcanic lava flows, tephra, etc will date to the time of eruption. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : ..by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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the GC uplift occurred the GC was formed all the stairs and canyons of the GS were formed the Hurricane fault occurred the magma dike in the GS area occurred all the formations of the southwest were sculpted such as the hoodoos yes, and
the strata were individually undisturbed by any comparable events before all that happened, False. They are all disturbed in different ways. They don't need to be "catastrophically disturbed" just to suit you. Just because you claim crows should be green and that any crows that aren't green would prove evolution erroneous doesn't mean that black crows prove anything other than that your belief of what should have happened is false. All you prove is that you don't understand geology, know squat about it, and are unwilling to learn.
showing that individually they were never at the surface of the earth throughout the entire billions of years they supposedly took to form False. The "knife edge" surfaces you are so fond of all show evidence of being a surface, either underwater or in air. Many have evidence of life on those surfaces, and that is enough to prove that they were a surface.
showing that the OE theory doesn't account for these formations, but rapid deposition and a young earth are the best interpretation Double False. Even IF your clouded rose glass observations were true it would not mean that rapid deposition and a young earth would explain them. The fact remains that no such formations have been observed happening TODAY from rapid deposition. NOT ONE. Uranium halos can't form in a few years, but it takes thousands of years for the decay of alpha particles to form the halos ... such halos exist and because of this they are de facto evidence of having taken a long time to be there. This is not interpretation, it is fact. There is a tree in the Sierra Nevadas that is over 5,063 years old. The evidence is annual growth rings, and all you have to do is count them: no interpretation needed. Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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1) According to you all, what caused the uplift of the GC? Tectonic uplift - Wikipedia
quote: For starters
2) Please tell me: What was the cause of the Supergroup? Grand Canyon Supergroup - Wikipedia
quote: and then they were eroded down to the level covered by the next round of sedimentation. Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
2) What caused the TILTING of the Supergroup? Earthquakes.
... but isn't the Shinumo Quartzite layer an exception to that? Shinumo Quartzite - Wikipedia
quote: Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
a) Did the earthquakes occur before or after the uplifting of the canyon area as a whole? They occurred before the tops of the supergroup were eroded and before the next layer of sediment was laid over them. How can you tell? they were roughly sheared off by erosion in a generally horizontal line to form the base for the next layer Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I don't know why RAZD answered "Earthquakes." ... ah the fault is all mine
... causes the stratigraphic layers to break up into blocks along vertical faults. ... I was just being simplistic ... Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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