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Author
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Topic: The Meaning Of The Trinity
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 96 of 1864 (735585)
08-18-2014 11:53 AM
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Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
08-18-2014 3:33 AM
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Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Phat writes: Creating the possibility of evil does not make the Creator evil.
Digging a hole for people to fall into is evil.
Phat writes: On the other hand, had the Creator made it so that you would never experience evil, He may well have done you a disservice by limiting the scope of your experience.
I'm willing to give up the experience of war, famine, genocide, etc.
Phat writes: You can call Him evil if you like, and I will always disagree with you.
You could at least try to be consistent. You want Sky Daddy to take care of you so you never have to grow up but you also want to take the responsibility whenever Sky Daddy doesn't take care of you.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 95 by Phat, posted 08-18-2014 3:33 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 97 by Phat, posted 08-18-2014 4:01 PM | | ringo has replied | | | Message 99 by NoNukes, posted 08-19-2014 5:49 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 98 of 1864 (735635)
08-19-2014 11:40 AM
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Reply to: Message 97 by Phat
08-18-2014 4:01 PM
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Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Phat writes: You want humans to be responsible for their behavior and claim that the gods don't listen anyway...and yet you pin the label on God as being responsible for evil.
No, I'm saying that you are describing an evil God.
Phat writes: In essence, you believe that if there is one God, he is evil and that we humans are better off without him. Wonder who whispered that logic into your ear?
Star Trek.
Phat writes: I could be in communion with a bank via a personal trust and it wouldnt mean that I couldnt count.
But it would mean that your count doesn't count.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 97 by Phat, posted 08-18-2014 4:01 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 100 of 1864 (735647)
08-20-2014 11:43 AM
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Reply to: Message 99 by NoNukes
08-19-2014 5:49 PM
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Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
NoNukes writes: ringo writes: I'm willing to give up the experience of war, famine, genocide, etc.
None of those things are caused by God creating the earth.
Try to keep up.  I was responding to Phat's Message 95:
quote:
On the other hand, had the Creator made it so that you would never experience evil, He may well have done you a disservice by limiting the scope of your experience.
which seems to suggest that God created "the possibility of evil" to broaden our range of experiences. My response was that He was doing us no favour.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 99 by NoNukes, posted 08-19-2014 5:49 PM | | NoNukes has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 101 by NoNukes, posted 08-20-2014 1:13 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 102 of 1864 (735652)
08-20-2014 1:46 PM
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Reply to: Message 101 by NoNukes
08-20-2014 1:13 PM
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Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
NoNukes writes: Not having or allowing evolution would be a disservice.
Tell it to Phat.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 101 by NoNukes, posted 08-20-2014 1:13 PM | | NoNukes has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 103 by Phat, posted 08-20-2014 2:06 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 104 of 1864 (735654)
08-20-2014 2:34 PM
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Reply to: Message 103 by Phat
08-20-2014 2:06 PM
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Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Phat writes: allowing the possibility of evil as a choice would actually compliment evolution, as the weaker people would fall in the hole and the stronger ones would avoid it.
So picking on the weak is not evil? Why couldn't God avoid creating evil by creating a world that didn't evolve?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 103 by Phat, posted 08-20-2014 2:06 PM | | Phat has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 108 of 1864 (735666)
08-21-2014 11:51 AM
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Reply to: Message 105 by Phat
08-20-2014 6:36 PM
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Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Phat writes: As it is a fact that we have evolved, the question as to why God didnt do it differently is actually rhetorical in the sense that we logically would want a God that was useful for ourselves.
If God isn't useful to us, what's the point of having a God?
Phat writes: And....more to the point...is clubbing your neighbor over the head to steal the limited food supply for your own offspring evil?
Creating a world with a limited food supply is evil.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 105 by Phat, posted 08-20-2014 6:36 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 109 of 1864 (735667)
08-21-2014 12:01 PM
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Reply to: Message 106 by NoNukes
08-20-2014 7:46 PM
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Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
NoNukes writes: Who says such a thing is even possible?
quote:
Matthew 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
NoNukes writes: Men do evil and it is impossible to create humans with free will where some of them won't do the wrong thing.
See above.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 106 by NoNukes, posted 08-20-2014 7:46 PM | | NoNukes has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 110 by NoNukes, posted 08-21-2014 8:39 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 117 of 1864 (735697)
08-22-2014 11:45 AM
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Reply to: Message 110 by NoNukes
08-21-2014 8:39 PM
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Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
NoNukes writes: Can God make a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it?
That just emphasizes how silly the concept of an "omnipotent" being is - as silly as the concept of a "trinity".
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 110 by NoNukes, posted 08-21-2014 8:39 PM | | NoNukes has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 119 by NoNukes, posted 08-22-2014 12:08 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 120 of 1864 (735709)
08-22-2014 12:52 PM
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Reply to: Message 119 by NoNukes
08-22-2014 12:08 PM
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Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
NoNukes writes: But most Christians are not quite so literal about the word omnipotent.
As soon as you give up omnipotence, "God" becomes just an alien overlord. Then the question becomes: do you "worship" it or charge up the phasers?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 119 by NoNukes, posted 08-22-2014 12:08 PM | | NoNukes has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 121 by NoNukes, posted 08-22-2014 2:39 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 122 of 1864 (735746)
08-23-2014 11:41 AM
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Reply to: Message 121 by NoNukes
08-22-2014 2:39 PM
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Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
NoNukes writes: God cannot control the will of a being and yet claim that the being has free will. Yet God could still exert such control. That's no limitation at all.
I call that the Bart Simpson Defence: "I could do that but I don't wanna." I could fly to the moon but I don't wanna. That's just the sort of empty claim that an alien overlord would make.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 121 by NoNukes, posted 08-22-2014 2:39 PM | | NoNukes has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 123 by NoNukes, posted 08-24-2014 10:34 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 124 of 1864 (735797)
08-25-2014 11:36 AM
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Reply to: Message 123 by NoNukes
08-24-2014 10:34 PM
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Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
NoNukes writes: If the claim is actually empty, yes.
How would you test it?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 123 by NoNukes, posted 08-24-2014 10:34 PM | | NoNukes has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 125 by NoNukes, posted 08-25-2014 1:45 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 135 of 1864 (735838)
08-26-2014 12:06 PM
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Reply to: Message 125 by NoNukes
08-25-2014 1:45 PM
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Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
NoNukes writes: There are of course those who insist on a God designs every butterfly and snowflake and maintains the planets in their orbits.
In fact, that's one of the more popular "proofs" that God exists.
NoNukes writes: is the constraint consistent with my view of God's nature.
If course your view of God's nature will be conisitent with your view of God's nature.
NoNukes writes: But more importantly, I don't see an obligation on God's part to step in and save us from ourselves. I find it completely curious that non-believers insist on such an obligation.
Apparently the multitudinous references in the Bible the "God the Father" have escaped your notice. Or don't you think fathers have obligations to their children?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 125 by NoNukes, posted 08-25-2014 1:45 PM | | NoNukes has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 136 of 1864 (735839)
08-26-2014 12:11 PM
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Reply to: Message 131 by Phat
08-26-2014 7:02 AM
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Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Phat writes: For one thing, you perceive the concept of God subjectively while I perceive Him objectively.
Bullshit.
Phat writes: The other issue is what christianity teaches. Basically, its all about allowing relationship with the object(ive) which is Jesus Christ.
The object isn't Christ; it's far from certain that He even existed. The object is the message. It's hard to be objective when you don't recognize the object.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 131 by Phat, posted 08-26-2014 7:02 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 137 by Phat, posted 08-26-2014 7:32 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 140 of 1864 (735862)
08-27-2014 11:41 AM
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Reply to: Message 137 by Phat
08-26-2014 7:32 PM
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Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Phat writes: The messenger and the message are one.
That's just a meaningless a meaningless sound-bite. There are many messengers with similar messages. The messenger, at best, is an example of the message.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 137 by Phat, posted 08-26-2014 7:32 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 143 by Phat, posted 08-27-2014 2:25 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 141 of 1864 (735863)
08-27-2014 11:54 AM
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Reply to: Message 138 by NoNukes
08-27-2014 10:56 AM
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Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
NoNukes writes: I find your statement a bit condescending, but not so much as to be offensive.
Maybe you're beginning to understand the concept of subtlety. 
NoNukes writes: The obligation parents have to children is simply to rear them properly. My oldest child is 23. I love him, of course. But what is my current obligation to him now?
You never stop being a parent. You have a perpetual obligation not to dig holes for him to fall into.
NoNukes writes: As a final statement, let me suggest that given that God did not birth any of us, the use of 'Father' to describe a relationship to God is pure metaphor.
The use of "Father" in the sense of "mentor", etc. is always metaphorical; that's why we also have terms like "biological father" and "sperm donor".
NoNukes writes: Arguments based on metaphor are extremely dangerous.
I'm Canadian; thin ice is my natural habitat. 
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 138 by NoNukes, posted 08-27-2014 10:56 AM | | NoNukes has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 144 by NoNukes, posted 08-27-2014 3:10 PM | | ringo has replied |
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