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Member (Idle past 5938 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The Meaning Of The Trinity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
Maybe you're beginning to understand the concept of subtlety. That's a might too condescending. Your post was not all that subtle anyway.
You never stop being a parent. You have a perpetual obligation not to dig holes for him to fall into. No more so than I have to any other human.
he use of "Father" in the sense of "mentor", etc. is always metaphorical; that's why we also have terms like "biological father" and "sperm donor". Father does not mean 'mentor' at all. That just one role for a parent, and I would submit that God is not a mentor. Beyond that, you seem to be arguing my case and not yours. Some uses of the term father don't imply any obligation at all.
'm Canadian; thin ice is my natural habitat All analogies have breaking points. If arguing by analogy is your normal style, you should anticipate being wrong quite a bit.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Good point. We are all "fathers" to each other in the same sense that God is a "father" to us - only we tend to be more hands-on about it. Actually, if we want to make analogies in that sense, "brothers", "neighbors", "fellow human", and "peers" works just as well for describing our relationship to each other. That relationship does not make me your "God" to reverse the sense of the metaphor.
NoNukes writes: Some uses of the term father don't imply any obligation at all. So give us some examples from the Bible. Why do I need to do that? Show me where the Bible describes an obligation to protect you from being eaten by a lion, and I'll be happy to use the Father metaphor to describe that relationship. Edited by NoNukes, : Complete argument.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
t is, and I have been wrong a time or two. I We should not strive to be wrong by deliberately arguing a metaphor past it's breaking point. I am not just saying that you are potentially wrong, I am saying that you are stretching a metaphor at least to the point where it is not the least bit persuasive. You can call God your Father, but even your own parent is not obligated to watch over you to make sure you don't misstep or encounter danger. If you think there is an obligation, then provide an argument.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Not only does it hint at an obligation, for if you ask then God will provide, but it also uses the Father-Son relationship in the explanation. Nicely done CS. When I thought about the topic offline, this was the best example I could come up with. What I would add though, is that the 'obligation' described here is an obligation that God has taken on. If you want to use this to rationalize that God owes us a world without war or a sun that won't be unsuitable in a few billion years, these verses are not much help.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I smell straw. I believe your nose is in error. I can point to past discussion involving exactly those examples. The real disagreement I have is with the idea that we can use the term 'Father' to make up obligations for God that we have no evidence or scripture indicating that God has agreed to. Edited by NoNukes, : Tweaked to remove endorsement of another posterUnder a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Of course God is not obligated to keep His promises. Maybe not, but if God breaks such promise, it would not be all that strange that we would judge him by that breach.
And He's certainly not obligated to keep promises made by someone else. Yes. This is exactly the point.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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Apparently you're not aware of the Clean Slate Defense? If people want to back out of earlier positions all they have to do is say so. I don't even mind if people change positions in the same thread.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I dunno, man, lately you've really been coming off as a bulldog of a nitpicky pedant. You want some bro?Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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Fasting also reminds us that man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. That is one of the greatest marketing scams used by Christianity. It is used solely as a marketing tool and serves no other purpose than provide an excuse for not doing what Jesus said we should do. My personal experience is that fastening does provide me with some extra amount of focus when accompanied by a dedicated period of Bible study or even planned acts of charity. And as far as a marketing tool, given that I would perform a fast by myself without any sharing outside of my spouse, and that no one would know I was doing it I don't know what marketing result would come from such my doing such a thing. I acknowledge that I may have missed your point. I agree that the Bible verse cited by Phat above is not really a recommendation to fast. But on the other hand, Jesus himself did mention the effectiveness of fastening directly, so there is no need to rely on a misinterpretation. In any event, fasting isn't a central teaching, in my opinion. If you don't do it, or don't see the benefit, that's certainly not something I'd find unusual. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Fasting itself can be very useful but it cannot replace bread. Give a hungry man a verse and he will still be hungry. Okay jar. That one got a smile out of me!! And I needed one today, very badly. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
It is always wise to question inner voices...even still small ones.. Moses did not claim to hear an inner voice of God. The Bible tell us that God met with Moses in various physical ways throughout Moses life. Are you claiming to have experiences similar to those described in the Bible regarding Moses? To Paul and Damascus? Just how many inner voice discussion with God are described in the Bible? Isn't that primarily a phenomena claimed by the post New Testament Church? Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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I did some quick research and found the following: The question was about "inner voice" communications from God. Do you think a voice coming out of a donkey's mouth is relevant? Were any of your examples relevant. It does not appear so to me. Are you making my point or yours? Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I would prefer that God created the possibility of evil---actualized by a fallen angel...rather than incorporating the attributes of evil directly into a part of God. How can good and free will both exist without evil, or not good existing? I don't believe such a thing is even possible. The choices then are to create good and evil or to create robots without the potential for doing anything but what they are told to do. Given a choice of a universe to live in, I'd prefer the former. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Not really, it is a theory that is imposed on nature so consistently that you think you are observing it. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
You misunderstand me. I am referring to the attributes of God...not humanity. So am I. God creates, and evil exists of necessity and not because it is the will of God or the purpose of God. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Not really, it is a theory that is imposed on nature so consistently that you think you are observing it. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
parasitic worms, for example. Worms are not evil. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Not really, it is a theory that is imposed on nature so consistently that you think you are observing it. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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