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Author Topic:   Addiction By Definition
ringo
Member
Posts: 15133
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 16 of 227 (744666)
12-14-2014 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Phat
12-14-2014 1:42 PM


Re: Addictions and Demons and Things That Go Bump In The Night
Phat writes:

He mentions that by crippling myself with addictive behavior, I am depriving others of the help that I could give them.


Sure, and by working at Safeway, you're depriving Sears of your expertise. Everything we do in one area deprives another area.

Phat writes:

IF I can get this addiction cured, all of my other minor addictions of any severity or consequence will also get resolved.


Really? Or is your behaviour just as likely to be channelled in another direction?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Phat, posted 12-14-2014 1:42 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Phat, posted 12-14-2014 1:55 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11146
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 17 of 227 (744669)
12-14-2014 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by ringo
12-14-2014 1:51 PM


Re: Addictions and Demons and Things That Go Bump In The Night
Phat writes:

IF I can get this addiction cured, all of my other minor addictions of any severity or consequence will also get resolved.


Ringo,responding writes:

Really? Or is your behaviour just as likely to be channelled in another direction?

Lets do some research on this one. Assuming EvC (and us) are still here in six months, let me get back to you on this one.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo

If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by ringo, posted 12-14-2014 1:51 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by ringo, posted 12-14-2014 2:11 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15133
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 18 of 227 (744675)
12-14-2014 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Phat
12-14-2014 1:55 PM


Re: Addictions and Demons and Things That Go Bump In The Night
Phat writes:

Lets do some research on this one. Assuming EvC (and us) are still here in six months, let me get back to you on this one.


I'm always glad for somebody else to do my homework for me.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Phat, posted 12-14-2014 1:55 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Phat, posted 09-26-2016 9:12 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 227 (744754)
12-15-2014 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by NoNukes
12-12-2014 10:20 PM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
What's the point in discussing addiction if you're going to rule out one of the most addictive substances that we know of?

And what good is a tautological definition of addiction? "Its a problem when its a problem"

Following your lead would make this whole thread totally pointless.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by NoNukes, posted 12-12-2014 10:20 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by NoNukes, posted 12-28-2014 3:07 PM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 20 of 227 (744755)
12-15-2014 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Phat
12-13-2014 7:23 AM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
Critics would suggest that vaping is a rationalization(excuse) to avoid the problem.

The problem is that when my body starts running out of nicotine I get very uncomfortable.

So I treat that symptom by putting nicotine into my body. Vaping involves vaporizing and inhaling a solution of nicotine in glycerin and propylene glycol. I also use a lozenge when I'm in a place where I can't vape.

I am physically addicted to the nicotine.

It does not cause problems in my day-to-day life.

If I was unable to get the nicotine, then it might start causing problems. I haven't crossed that bridge yet.

What is the point of denying that this is an addiction because it doesn't debilitate my life?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Phat, posted 12-13-2014 7:23 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by NoNukes, posted 12-23-2014 7:55 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 227 (745526)
12-23-2014 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by New Cat's Eye
12-15-2014 9:40 AM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
What is the point of denying that this is an addiction because it doesn't debilitate my life?

Are you addicted to vitamin C? After all, if you don't get enough of it you are going to get scurvy.

Does it bother you that nobody considers vitamin C an addition?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-15-2014 9:40 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 12-24-2014 6:15 PM NoNukes has responded
 Message 29 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-02-2015 11:48 AM NoNukes has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11146
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 22 of 227 (745605)
12-24-2014 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by NoNukes
12-23-2014 7:55 PM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
Perhaps we should discuss various definitions of what constitutes an addiction.

Here is one such definition for consideration and to fuel further topic discussion:

WHO Lexicon writes:

addiction, drug or alcohol Repeated use of a psychoactive substance or substances, to the extent that the user (referred to as an addict) is periodically or chronically intoxicated, shows a compulsion to take the preferred substance (or substances), has great difficulty in voluntarily ceasing or modifying substance use, and exhibits determination to obtain psychoactive substances by almost any means. Typically, tolerance is prominent and a withdrawal syndrome frequently occurs when substance use is interrupted. The life of the addict may be dominated by substance use to the virtual exclusion of all other activities and responsibilities. The term addiction also conveys the sense that such substance use has a detrimental effect on society, as well as on the individual; when applied to the use of alcohol, it is equivalent to alcoholism. Addiction is a term of long-standing and variable usage. It is regarded by many as a discrete disease entity, a debilitating disorder rooted in the pharmacological effects of the drug, which is remorselessly progressive. From the 1920s to the 1960s attempts were made to differentiate between addiction ; and "habituation", a less severe form of psychological adaptation. In the 1960s the World Health Organization recommended that both terms be abandoned in favour of dependence, which can exist in various degrees of severity. Addiction is not a diagnostic term in ICD-10, but continues to be very widely employed by professionals and the general public alike.

Are you addicted to vitamin C? After all, if you don't get enough of it you are going to get scurvy.

Does it bother you that nobody considers vitamin C an addition?

Vitamin C can be taken or not taken...at least by me...without any compulsion or physically or psychological need to take it. Perhaps a health freak could become obsessed with taking C religiously, however, and it could theoretically then be classified as an addiction...but the addiction would not be to the substance itself would it?

Edited by Phat, : spelling

Edited by Phat, : added NoNukes


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo

If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by NoNukes, posted 12-23-2014 7:55 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by NoNukes, posted 12-25-2014 1:37 AM Phat has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 227 (745622)
12-25-2014 1:37 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Phat
12-24-2014 6:15 PM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
Vitamin C can be taken or not taken...at least by me...without any compulsion or physically or psychological need to take it.

You don't need Vitamin C supplements because you are already getting vitamin C from elsewhere. Cut that stuff off and you are going to have physical issues.

What's missing, among other things, is any kind of determination to obtain vitamin C by any means. Scurvy does not communicate to your body any need to get vitamin C.

At any rate, I agree that Vitamin C does not belong on the list. On the other hand, the definition is specifically for psychoactive substances and requires that the substance produce intoxication. It would exclude vaping or smoking. Perhaps using it is just defining away Cat Sci's question in an unsatisfactory way.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 12-24-2014 6:15 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 12-28-2014 5:42 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11146
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 24 of 227 (745826)
12-28-2014 5:42 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by NoNukes
12-25-2014 1:37 AM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
I tend to believe that addiction by definition is defined as an altered brain.

A maladaptive response to stress.

As of today, I am on day 17 of sobriety. Noted, among other things, is an increased capacity for emotion.

Also am reconnecting with my past belief(ten years ago or so) and feel I am improving in some ways and stagnant in other ways.

The experts claim it will take 6 months of sobriety before I will even experience a full flood of emotions from the healing process.

I plan on sticking it out that long---so we may get some subjective feedback from my narcissistic ass. Stay tuned.


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo

If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by NoNukes, posted 12-25-2014 1:37 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 227 (745869)
12-28-2014 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by New Cat's Eye
12-15-2014 9:34 AM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
What's the point in discussing addiction if you're going to rule out one of the most addictive substances that we know of?

I've already answered this question twice.

And what good is a tautological definition of addiction? "Its a problem when its a problem"

That's not what I said. I said that an addiction causes life problems. I did not attempt to define what "life problems" meant, but you felt free to tell me that nicotine was not causing you any problems. How were you able to do that?

What's wrong with you? Are you some kind of oxygen addict?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-15-2014 9:34 AM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Phat, posted 12-30-2014 1:07 AM NoNukes has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11146
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 26 of 227 (745939)
12-30-2014 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by NoNukes
12-28-2014 3:07 PM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
Cat Sci writes:

And what good is a tautological definition of addiction? "Its a problem when its a problem"

NoNukes writes:

That's not what I said. I said that an addiction causes life problems.

Dr.Patrick Carnes

Lets define addiction, for starters.


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo

If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by NoNukes, posted 12-28-2014 3:07 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by NoNukes, posted 12-30-2014 1:36 AM Phat has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 227 (745942)
12-30-2014 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Phat
12-30-2014 1:07 AM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
Lets define addiction, for starters.

I'm probably not going to watch that video. That leaves me with responsibility of transcribing enough of the definition to discuss, and I think you should have done that.

I thought the definition you provided for addiction in a previous post was just fine except for the requirement that addiction must include intoxication. In short your definition was for addiction to psychoactive drugs and would need some generalization.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Phat, posted 12-30-2014 1:07 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 12-31-2014 2:00 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11146
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 28 of 227 (745989)
12-31-2014 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by NoNukes
12-30-2014 1:36 AM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
I posted this in another topic, but will repost it here---which is where it belongs!
quote:
I have a licensed counselor. He is on the state board of problem gambling.
Through talking with him in sessions, I learn much of the research done and the methods such as The Stages Of Change Model and Rational Recovery.

He is a good therapist, but I am a stubborn old coot. I often go around the same mountain several dozen times before I realize that i'm not getting anywhere. My therapist explained the addictive pattern in the brain and much of the stuff that I share here at EvC. He even suggested medications, which I have tried in the past but reject overall--they cause harm as well as good.


Addiction is quite definable and observable within me. As I achieve a longer and longer time with sobriety, I will note the reactions and emotions and will talk of them here. Thats the plan.


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo

If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by NoNukes, posted 12-30-2014 1:36 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 29 of 227 (746102)
01-02-2015 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by NoNukes
12-23-2014 7:55 PM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
Does it bother you that nobody considers vitamin C an addition?

Not in the slightest.

Are you addicted to vitamin C?

Nope.

For one, I need vitamin C to survive.

For two, never once has my body told me: "I kinda feel like shit, you should get some vitamin C in here".

On the other hand, I do not need nicotine nor caffiene to survive but on many occasions my body has told me to get some so it'll stop feeling like shit.

So I'm addicted to both of those things but not vitamin C.

From Message 23:

On the other hand, the definition is specifically for psychoactive substances and requires that the substance produce intoxication. It would exclude vaping or smoking.

You sure about that? I think nicotine is psychoactive, and that there is a non-zero amount of intoxication.

I don't think that definition excludes nicotine. It might not even exclude caffiene but I'd have to look that up.

From Message 25:

What's the point in discussing addiction if you're going to rule out one of the most addictive substances that we know of?

I've already answered this question twice.

I still don't know the answer. Which message(s) should I read?

And what good is a tautological definition of addiction? "Its a problem when its a problem"

That's not what I said. I said that an addiction causes life problems. I did not attempt to define what "life problems" meant,

No shit, that's why I challenged your definition. It didn't actually define, it just set up a taughtology.

Why can't I have an addiction to something that does not cause me life problems?

but you felt free to tell me that nicotine was not causing you any problems. How were you able to do that?

I was able to do that because your terms were undefined, so I challenged the definition according to the terms as I understood them. It turns out that you were not talking about the same things I was.

What's wrong with you? Are you some kind of oxygen addict?

No, I need oxygen to survive. Addictions are for things that you don't need to live, but you think you need them anyway.

Your brain tricks your body into thinking that it needs the chemical or behavior to survive, but it really doesn't.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by NoNukes, posted 12-23-2014 7:55 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by ringo, posted 01-02-2015 11:54 AM New Cat's Eye has responded
 Message 36 by NoNukes, posted 01-03-2015 12:15 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded
 Message 37 by NoNukes, posted 01-04-2015 2:30 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15133
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 30 of 227 (746104)
01-02-2015 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by New Cat's Eye
01-02-2015 11:48 AM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
Cat's Eye writes:

Your brain tricks your body into thinking that it needs the chemical or behavior to survive, but it really doesn't.


So the distinction is between addiction and need. An addiction is a counterfeit "need".
This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-02-2015 11:48 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-02-2015 11:59 AM ringo has responded
 Message 62 by Phat, posted 09-12-2016 5:30 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
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