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Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Climate Change Denier comes in from the cold: SCIENCE!!! | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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and shows that it is man-made global climate change.
Richard Muller: I Was Wrong on Climate Change - Little Green Footballs quote: This is how you do science: if you disagree with another scientific conclusion you set out to show that it is wrong, you test the details and eliminate the possibilities and then whatever you are left with, no matter how much it goes against your initial beliefs, is what is valid -- and you report it. Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Hello Razd! Who is "we"? The human race as an aggregate whole, in spite of the efforts of some to decrease it. When you drive a car or ride a bus you are contributing.
What is it that global warming believers want? There are no believers when the facts show warming -- belief is for people without evidence. What global warming scientists -- including this former denier -- want is for people to accept the science and the facts. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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marc9000 writes: I suspect Razd is working on some lengthy comparisons for me, And here they are! But WAIT, Razd lost interest in this thread at exactly the same time as someone else with very identical views and posting style jumped right in, supporting Razd's links perfectly! It's a scientific miracle! Or the knowledge of global warming is so pervasive that just about anyone can answer your concerns, probably even high school kids that haven't had an education handicapped by institutional ignorance (like creationist schools) ... So I'll just touch on one of your more willfully ignorant comments ... and go long on that:
5 Scientific Reasons That Global Warming Isn't Happening
quote: First I wonder if you know what small scale variations around a long term trend actually show ... which is small scale variations that don't significantly alter the long term trend ... Second I wonder if you know that this purported pause in global warming was just based on atmospheric data not the total system data ... Third I wonder if you know that most of the global warming is going into the ocean ... Fourth I wonder if you know that the global records of surface warming used at the time (for that claim) were not complete ... Fifth I wonder if you know that global warming is not consistent around the globe (some areas are actually cooling because of changing climate patterns) ... and those patterns are also changing ... Curiously I did a google on global warming pause debunked and got over two million results, the top of the list was:
quote: So what we can say is that different parts are affected to different degrees (pun intended of course) ... and that when the warming trend shifted to the polar regions it went unnoticed, not that it went away. The warming at the poles are part of a threshold pattern, that when a certain level of warming has been reached that the conditions change on how much is reflected back into space vs what is absorbed in/on the surface. Do you know that a 2°F change in ocean surface temperature can be the difference between a small hurricane and a big one? Another variation pattern is important is where atmospheric temperatures rises and more net heat is put into the surface water, and then into the deep oceans via upwelling (that brings up colder water) and sinking currents (which takes warmer surface water down into the depths). One of these sinking currents is at the northern end of the Gulf Stream as part of the global conveyor belt pattern of global currents.
quote: Note that most of the global warming is sequestered in the deep ocean and does not show in surface temperature records. This deep ocean warming can affect the deep ocean currents the same way that atmospheric climate patterns have been affected changing the weather patterns and the way they distribute energy around the globe. So even if there were a "pause" in atmospheric warming trends, that is only 10% of the total systematic heating of the globe, and heating has continued in the ocean. And if you are really worried about methane then you should be very worried about warming in the arctic, but that is another issue for another day. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Usable? Well, you could certainly use it to plan a European vacation using a time machine. You could avoid the "year without a summer" in 1816. Curiously, I wonder why they did not compare data to the dendroclimate data, especially what is shown by the three long dendrochronology that extend back over 8,000 years and which show frost rings for the "year without a summer" and other volcanic influences on global climate.
Frost Rings in Trees as Records of Major Volcanic Eruptions (abstract)(1)
quote:
We can see the evidence of frost-rings for 1817 (following the "year with no summer"), and for 1884, after the eruption of Krakatoa in 1883. There are several other notable events shown going back to 1601 CE, however there was no frost-ring for 1785 when one of the highest DVI's was recorded. The thicknesses of the rings record the temperature variations from year to year, and these rings are well studied and documented. There is also evidence of significantly wider rings in the Bristlecone Pines in modern years showing significant warming of their environment:
quote:
The full paper is available at the link, and I have other information on tree rings and climate markers.
They necessarily focus on the past few centuries because that's how long we've been recording things like temperatures, sunspots, and volcanoes. Some of the relevant data can be pushed back a few thousand more years using ice cores. Other info, like Milankovitch cycles, have been calculated back to 500,000,000 years BP. However, given what we know of natural cycles, anything older that about 10,000 years is mostly irrelevant. At that time scale, the Medieval Warm Period and the Little Ice Age virtually disappear into mere blips. Are you keen to deny that these periods represented climate change as well? With time scales of millions of years, Earth's temperatures are virtually flat. Always. Again the dendro-chonology record not only measures time accurately, but it measures carbon content -- with special attention of course to 14C, but 13C as well. See Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1 for some additional links on dendrochronology and other annual layer age measurements and their correlations. Enjoy ps -- peek to see how I made a white background:
Edited by RAZD, : psby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Except for 31,000 scientists ? quote: And how many of them are climate scientists?
quote: So, only 39 are climatologists ... Surprised they don't list astrologists ... So let me correct that for you:
Except for 31,000 people that claim to have some scientific background? The card signed is an example: PhD in Physics ... which does not automatically make him any kind of expert in climate science ... IF the science in question is NOT in the field that a scientist has studied and worked in, then he is no more knowledgeable than the average person. This is the same logical fallacy of appeal to authority that AIG or the Discover Institute makes in their list of "scientists" who deny evolution. I wonder how many climate scientists name Steve are convinced that global warming is occurring ...
quote: The number of climate scientists on record as dissenting or skeptical of global climate change is on the order of 3% of scientists working in the field.
Notice the wickedly precise and cogent reason for the denial ...
... The global warming scare is only a few decades old, unlike evolution, which has had about 100 years to politically strengthen itself. Evolution is pretty advanced in finding ways to rationalize its failures. Global warming advocates have a long way to go to rationalize their failures. Your paranoid conspiracy delusion is showing again. The science is strengthened by facts supporting it and a failure on the part of skeptics, deniers and disbelievers to demonstrate that the science is wrong.
More cherry-picking of a temporary variation on a long term trend ...
quote: Also see Update Your Browser | Facebookfor a video showing time lapse satellite data. Climate change is not constant for any single area on the globe, the pattern or areas affected change from year to year because ... it is climate, a variable system. You have to look at the long term trends for any specific area, rather than pick out a recent variation on that trend, as that is like quote mining of what people are saying, misrepresenting the actual trend. The other problem with sea ice is that it is heavily influenced by the amount of fresh water on the surface near the poles. It isn't glacial ice, but the fresh water can result from melting glacial ice, and as fresh water floats on salt water more sea ice could be result from more summer melting of the glacial ice. Additionally, the tundra is thawing to unprecedented levels, which also means ancient CO2 and methane are being released into the atmosphere.
Study Says Melting Permafrost Emitting More Carbon Than Tundra Can Offset Frozen Alaska Arctic Tundra is Being Lost As Far North Quickly Warms Note some of this is old news ... Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
From BEST/Muller (Yale Climate Connections is a nonpartisan, multimedia service providing daily broadcast radio programming and original web-based reporting, commentary, and analysis on our changing climate.)
From NASA Climate Denial Empire Strikes Back with Bogus Temperature Story | Climate Denial Crock of the Week
Which also debunks the "The old reliable fudging the data canard ... The latest incarnation is splashed all over the usual toxic vectors — in fact, it’s the Biggest Science Scandal Ever!" ... in detail. More good reading is Why climate scientists are right about how hot the planet is going to get ... looking at CO2 data from foraminifera. Love those guys. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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How does data (possibly fudged) "debunk" any claims about data being fudged? Two basic ways marc9000 ... 1. A review and adjustment of the calibration of scientific instruments is standard operating procedure for ALL scientific instruments to ensure accurate and precise results. If an instrument is out of calibration the data is adjusted so that the readings match from pre-adjustment to post-adjustment ... you do agree that the temperature should be the same at the calibration point in time don't you? Say the adjustment is 1° and the last calibration was a year ago -- you know it was accurate a year ago and you know it is accurate now, and you know that over the year it became 1° so you can prorate that difference over the year to improve the accuracy of the intermediate readings. Without such adjustment there is a discontinuity in the data. Often instruments are upgraded with new instruments that are more accurate and precise -- which also results in a discontinuity in the data from one instrument to the next. Adjusting the historical data so that it matches the new instrument at the same time and same place is not fudging the data but calibrating the old equipment to the new equipment. Data on such calibrations show that the data is not "fudged" but calibrated and by how much and why. 2. By ignoring the calibrations and adjustments of the data and using it raw. The discontinuities cause small point variation in the data but do not using the raw data still shows the overall trend. The raw data is still precise it is just slightly less accurate but that difference in accuracy is systemic: if the discontinuity is 1° hotter then all the data post discontinuity will be 1° hotter ... and you will still see the long term trend. glowby addresses other reasons for making adjustments to data in Message 52. Let me make an analogy: I am going to survey the elevations of a road over a 10 mile length. I start with a single point -- a survey marker with a known elevation(1). I set up my level, take a reading on the marker and record how much higher the instrument is than the marker. This is my delta. I then take several readings along one side of the road and subtract the delta from those readings to arrive at their elevations benchmarked to the marker. At some point I need to move the instrument (I can't see 10 miles), so I take a reading on a temporary survey marker that is set in solid ground. I move to the other side of this temporary marker and take a second reading on it from the new location. From the difference in readings on the same temporary marker I adjust my delta and continue as before. When I reach the end of the 10 mile stretch I am half done, because the survey has to be closed to ensure accuracy. This is done by repeating the process back down the road using different temporary markers to adjust the delta. When I get back to the start I take a final reading on the original survey marker. Now I think you will agree that
Now I can plot the elevation data versus length along the road both with the adjusted and calibrated data (which accurately and precisely shows the overall trend of elevation vs distance) and I can plot the uncalibrated data (which shows the same overall trend with slightly less accuracy and precision). And I can even ignore the adjustments made in the delta for each turning point and plot the data as a series of discontinuous lines for each setup ... and each of those lines will still show the overall trend in change in elevation over the length of data taken at each setup. Plus I can point out that it is irrational to think there are sudden jumps or drops in the elevation of the road at each turning point for data taken for the same point (the temporary markers) from different sides when the data from the return trip, using different turning points does not show a jump or drop at that location -- I can use the data from the return trip to adjust the first run data even without knowing what the difference in delta was at the turning point discontinuity. This also would not be fudging the data but adjusting it by cross-referencing it to other data in the same region. Now a naive and ignorant person who wants to believe that the end of the road is only 1 ft higher than the start of the road, instead of the 5 ft higher as measured by the survey, can yell and scream about fudging the data to make it come out 5 ft higher, but that wouldn't be a realistic argument about the actual level of the road would it? This is the kind of process engineers and scientists use when collecting data to ensure that it is as accurate and precise as possible within the limitations of the equipment. Enjoy (1) - the US Geological Survey sets these markers, originally by doing surveys similar to what I outlined and by integrating the data into a web. They now use satellite data to confirm (and adjust) those elevations, and this new data can show that some markers are rising and some are sinking from tectonic activity. Old surveys made from the markers can be updated to adjust for those changes ... Edited by RAZD, : footnoteby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Yeah, we have safety testing every year and emissions are part of that.
Any byproduct - such as cleaner running engines is bonus. But I can do more to reduce my carbon footprint by using alternative energy at home -- solar panels and wind generators. With a surplus I can put energy back into the grid and reduce consumption of fossil fuels at generator plants. I am also working on a solar water heating system to augment or replace the hot water heater and boiler and thus reducing fuel use. My house is already rated "more efficient than your efficient neighbors" by the power company. And I am working to get my town to install solar panels to reduce their costs. Most work done in town offices is during the day, so little battery storage should be needed. We are also embarking on having solar powered street lights that store solar pv energy in a battery at each light to run at night ... ensuring street lights work during power outages. Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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quote: And there's only one thing worse, the search for a superior moral justification to give other people orders, to rule over them, and not be accountable for it if it doesn't work out. History is full of examples. You're confused -- that is still the conservative (GOP) program. by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
... miniscule compared to the heat due to less sunlight being reflected back into space since 1970 from significantly less cloud cover compared to pre-1970 times. Data?References? How hot it is going to get due to co2 greenhouse forcing?....miniscule compared to the heat due to less sunlight being reflected back into space since 1970 from significantly less cloud cover compared to pre-1970 times. Which fails to explain the continued trend to hottest years on record -- 15 of the last 16? If the earth is still warming and the cloud cover is less than before then energy available for warming is greater than the cooling effect of reflected energy that was lost due to cloud cover changes ... yes? Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Data and references later as time permits. And I can wait.
If less low level cloud cover caused the temperature increase from 1970 to 1998, why could it not also explain the warming of the last 16 years which was puny in comparison to the aforementioned years? You are aware that the purported "pause" in global warming has been shown to be an artifact of incomplete data aren't you? global warming pause debunked - Search First hit:
quote: Variations do not refute the long term trend. See how reference to actual science and data strengthens an argument?
You mean greater shortwave radiation available for later entrapment by the greenhouse effect? Yes, but I'm not sure that is what you meant. If so, then that only strengthens my point. I am claiming that the energy reflected back into space by low level clouds is many magnitudes greater than the greenhouse effect of carbon dioxide at today's concentration. The amplification of the energy from extra sunlight without the clouds is neglible compared to the extra energy being amplified. Baseless conjectures are not how science is done, nor is it how science is refuted. You need evidence, such as what is found in references and actual data. So, again I wait for a real argument. Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Here is some additional information on the status of climate change science
quote: Dunning—Kruger effect anyone?
quote: So unless you look at all the data from all the fields of study you are
An example is the so-called pause in atmospheric temperatures, which ignores the arctic zones and the ocean temperatures.
quote: Americans should be ashamed that Australia and England are taking steps when the US is bogged down by ignorance and the GOP war on science and education.
quote: Sounds exactly like what is happening out west.
quote: And I would expect numerous speciation events to occur -- macroevolution -- as ecological niches are opened up. Whether the human race is one of the species to survive depends on how much it can adapt to the changing environment. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
They have a reason to lie, the oldest reason in the world. Power and money. Looks like you and a bunch of other denialists got scammed
Ultimate Wealth Report - Ultimate Wealth Report - Real Asset Investing to Fight Inflation
Gotta love those conspiracy theorists and their patsies. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
They have a reason to lie, the oldest reason in the world. Power and money. Looks like you and a bunch of other denialists got scammed
Ultimate Wealth Report - Ultimate Wealth Report - Real Asset Investing to Fight Inflation
Gotta love those conspiracy theorists and their patsies. What in the world does this investment guru's advertising have to do with this thread? Don't you even read and investigate your own sources? This site:
... Power and money. Is your "investment guru's" page of falsehoods about climate change ... Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Let your dog lick the plates clean, rinse and let dry.
by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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