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Author Topic:   Earth science curriculum tailored to fit wavering fundamentalists
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2402 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 574 of 1053 (753540)
03-20-2015 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 572 by kbertsche
03-20-2015 12:00 PM


Re: Questioning the Flood
kbertsche writes:
You guys might also like Glenn Morton's story
I had read and enjoyed that article along with his 'demon' article. I wish I had been able to read more of Morton's writings - I came to this search after he had apparently taken down much of his published material. Sad for me.
JB

This message is a reply to:
 Message 572 by kbertsche, posted 03-20-2015 12:00 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 577 by kbertsche, posted 03-20-2015 3:42 PM ThinAirDesigns has replied

  
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2402 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 575 of 1053 (753541)
03-20-2015 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 573 by RAZD
03-20-2015 12:15 PM


Re: The gullible gallup one step at a time
RAZD writes:
Ask him which ONE →(1)← one argument he finds the most convincing:
This is excellent advice.
Thanks
JB

This message is a reply to:
 Message 573 by RAZD, posted 03-20-2015 12:15 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2402 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 578 of 1053 (753573)
03-20-2015 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 577 by kbertsche
03-20-2015 3:42 PM


Re: Questioning the Flood
kbertsche writes:
But you can always use the Internet Archive Wayback Machine to find his old pages, if you wish.
Oh wow -- you would have thought that being from the Silicon Valley I would have known about that Wayback Machine, but no.
I'm going to go save me some pages.
THANKS
JB

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 Message 577 by kbertsche, posted 03-20-2015 3:42 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2402 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


(1)
Message 579 of 1053 (753581)
03-20-2015 7:43 PM


Morton pages
Thanks to kbertsche and the Wayback Machine, I have all(?) of Morton's pages. There's about 150 pages and around 2,000 associated files (total ~50mb).
Anyone who would like a zipped file, Pm me.
As a side note, after spending a bit of time on Glenn's climate blog, I will be carefully researching Morton's OE work if/when I use it. I'm not entirely impressed with his commitment to facts and good science after reading it and hope his OE approach wasn't the same (but fear it could be). I tend to be cautious and research sources before relying on them so I'll stick with that again here. Skepticism of any source has served me well in my life.
JB

Replies to this message:
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ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2402 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 582 of 1053 (753638)
03-21-2015 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 581 by Pollux
03-21-2015 12:58 AM


Re: Flood sermon
Pollux writes:
Ecological zonation and ability to flee the Flood accounts for the fossil record
Do you think that the speaker understands just how clearly sorted the fossil record actually is? In other words, is he claiming that ecological zonation and mobility sorts perfectly or does he believe that the fossil record is jumbled in a way that allows for them?
sudden appearance of life in the Cambrian with no Pre-Cambrian fossils;
Is his position that those fossils found in pre-cambrian layers are a hoax, or does he simply annex the pre-cambrian layers into the cambrian layers to win the word game or is he just not looking at the evidence? (not sure of his education/experience level)
C14 in coal and diamonds; soft tissues in dino bones
A combination of ignorance and lies gets us there - all old hat.
low sea levels and vegetation rafts allowed post-Flood dispersal.
Not completely following here, but I'm guessing you're referring to species dispersal? In other words, the two koalas, two kangaroos, etc. hopped out of the ark, onto a raft and punched their ticket to Australia?
I apologize if you've told us already, but was this some local guy giving the speech or some 'professional' who has a website or something? Would be interested to know more about his positions if he has a site.
Thanks for the update.
JB

This message is a reply to:
 Message 581 by Pollux, posted 03-21-2015 12:58 AM Pollux has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 587 by Pollux, posted 03-21-2015 6:44 PM ThinAirDesigns has replied

  
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2402 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 590 of 1053 (753710)
03-21-2015 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 589 by Faith
03-21-2015 6:51 PM


Re: Flood sermon
Faith writes:
Tectonic movement didn't begin until after the Flood
And the scientific evidence for this is?
JB

This message is a reply to:
 Message 589 by Faith, posted 03-21-2015 6:51 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 592 by Faith, posted 03-21-2015 6:57 PM ThinAirDesigns has replied

  
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2402 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 591 of 1053 (753711)
03-21-2015 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 587 by Pollux
03-21-2015 6:44 PM


Re: Flood sermon
Thanks for the info.
JB

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ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2402 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 596 of 1053 (753719)
03-21-2015 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 592 by Faith
03-21-2015 6:57 PM


Re: Flood sermon
Faith writes:
What's the scientific evidence that erosion can render a hard spiky lumpy surface flat and horizontal?
The processes and mechanisms by which hard spiky surfaces are gradually reduced to flat and horizontal are well established scientifically. They can even be witnessed year in and year out as the products of erosion are carried from the mountains (those hard spiky, lumpy things) to the meadows and deltas (those relatively flat horizontal things) via rivers, wind and slides. Gravity moves things from high points to low points - it's the law.
But on this thread, that's the only response you will get from me on an off topic you bring from the other thread.
Now, back to the topic of scientific evidence for your statement from this thread:
Faith writes:
Tectonic movement didn't begin until after the Flood
This is a thread discussing a curriculum based only on evidence, not bald assertions based on theology.
The evidence please.
JB
Edited by ThinAirDesigns, : No reason given.
Edited by ThinAirDesigns, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2402 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 600 of 1053 (753748)
03-21-2015 9:04 PM


Humans and psychology of scale
One of the things I'm noticing in my discussions with my YEC family and friends (and by watching Faith), is how naturally bad humans are at comprehending scale.
My family is heavy into the health care business (SDA's often are). Nurses, lab techs, EMTs, therapists, etc. They are far too knowledgeable of how organisms adapt (say to antibiotics) to claim it doesn't happen. To a person they all now say "micro-evolution happens, but not macro-evolution". They can't connect that the only difference between micro and macro is elapsed time.
It's a similar deal thinking of erosion -- we can all stand by a swollen river in the spring and know that there are particles of earth being moved downstream -- we can SEE them in the water, it's happening in front of our eyes. All that visual evidence and the connection still isn't made that what's happening is the mountains are steadily but surely being worn down, carried to the valley and deposited in the low spots. Taking the next step is just realizing that micro-erosion on a macro timescale can do amazing things.
I don't think humans comprehend time all that well when taken far out of our lifespan range. An example of this would be the difference in the comprehension of time for me as a young child vs a 50s adult. I remember in my late single digit years hearing on the radio of some infrastructure construction project (dam or bridge or...) that had not started yet and whose planned completion date was as I recall, 7 years in the future. I remember thinking "WHAT!!!??? People make plans SEVEN YEARS IN ADVANCE???" That was just crazy talk to someone not yet 10. To a 3yo, the next birthday will never get here. At my age, the calendar spins through with ease.
Imagining the macro (millions and bilions of years) just isn't our natural forte and yet if we can grasp that, it easily explains what we see here on earth through very natural processes - the very SAME natural processes that we accept on a micro scale. If one can stretch the timescale in the mind for just moment and peek out at the world, suddenly the evidence all around us falls into place.
I once heard someone describe how as humans our assessments of risk are based naturally on our lifespan. They pointed out that if we were capable of living to be a million years old, no one would ever go swimming. Statistically, swimmers would never reach old age but in time would succumb to the hazards of the water essentially without fail (I've done the math ... other than expected anomalies, they're right). Crossing the street would be even worse.
The psychology of OE is difficult, especially if YE is ingrained at a young age. One of the challenges I face is figuring out ways to get them to allow themselves to just imagine for a moment how things *might be* if, just IF the world was not young.
And Faith, since the discussion of this psychology is core to this thread, you are welcome (by my standards, can't comment on the mods standards) to comment as I consider that aspect to be on topic.
JB

  
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2402 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 601 of 1053 (753750)
03-21-2015 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 598 by kbertsche
03-21-2015 8:19 PM


Re: Flood sermon
kbertsche writes:
Bottom line: if we are honest with the evidence, we will realize that the record of nature not only gives evidence of age, but also of history. This is very difficult to fit into a YEC view without implying that God was deceptive.
This is one of the areas that I'm fortunate with the group I'm trying to reach. Each one has readily acknowledged that they don't believe in a god that has placed evidence in/on the earth to lead us astray as a test of faith. That just leaves it up to the evidence which falls squarely in the OE camp. It's all a matter of a willingness to be open to the evidence and I'm seeing more and more and more of that. It's exciting actually.
JB

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 Message 598 by kbertsche, posted 03-21-2015 8:19 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2402 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 602 of 1053 (754171)
03-24-2015 8:04 PM


Credit where credit is due
Quick question for those with experience in such.
When I'm writing script for curriculum video, I certainly understand the importance of crediting quotes I use. What to you do in the case of Wikipedia 'quotes'? Sometimes Wikipedia describes something quite well and I might like to just read a paragraph from the entry. I can't exactly credit the author(s) because - well, because it's Wikipedia.
Any thoughts?
Thanks
JB
Edited by ThinAirDesigns, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
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ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2402 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


(1)
Message 603 of 1053 (754187)
03-24-2015 10:01 PM


So I'm working on my first scripts for the curriculum. It feels like a small step in a VERY long journey. I want to have a substantial percentage of the series done before I post any of the videos or create a web site so for reference I would guess I'm at least year or more out of any produced final product. Still much to learn and much to do.
As a note, I will not be attempting to create an earth science curriculum that will compete with those say at the local community college. What I'm trying to do is create something that will *prepare* wavering fundamentalist youth (and older of course) for those basic CC science courses. Right now if they were even brave enough to sign up, they would feel like aliens in the classroom and might even simply walk away during the first class either out of embarrassment or from programming. In short, my goal is to produce a product that can gently walk them towards a confidence in the scientific method and a realization of just how badly they've been lied to. From there their own curiosity will determine their future.
Following are a few examples of topics that I want to start out with. As we've talked about on this thread before, I can't start talking geology or dendrochronology with them until I get them to understand some basic principles. Several of these topics were suggested by thread contributors and I am grateful for the suggestions (then, now and in the future). Clearly, psychology plays a huge part in these early topics. It is only by laying the groundwork of confidence that I will be able to get the to accept any of the later evidence. I must overturn almost all of what they know of science and I must start out entirely using examples that they have not been programmed to reject.
The Scientific method
Skepticism: 'authority figures' are questioned every day in science.
We don't follow the teachings of Darwin: how science stands or falls on the evidence, not on the person.
Facts vs scientific hypothesis vs scientific theory vs law
Science is never settled (and that's a good thing)
Inductive and deductive reasoning
Consilience/convergence of evidence
I'm really open to more suggestions on topics in the general area of the above or changes to the order or content of the topics I have mentioned. While I'm grateful to all, I'm especially appreciative of those contributors who are sensitive to the position these people find themselves in - programmed and ignorant, but cautiously thirsty for knowledge.
Thanks
JB

Replies to this message:
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ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2402 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 608 of 1053 (754233)
03-25-2015 11:54 AM


Appreciation
Thanks kbertsche for both the style input and the science book/article suggestions. I read the article and found it useful. It will take a bit longer to access the book obviously.
Appreciated.
JB

  
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2402 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


(1)
Message 609 of 1053 (754235)
03-25-2015 12:06 PM


Due to content differences, I'm going to have to use a variety of production styles in my videos -- a mix of still photos, other video, screen capture etc.. With the videos that are describing and illustrating principles I'm leaning towards using the 'whiteboard' style software with a voice over. Sort of like this one by NASA

  
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2402 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 610 of 1053 (754236)
03-25-2015 12:12 PM


Consilience script draft
First round try at a script. Want to keep these videos to around 10-12 minutes. Critique and suggestions always welcome. Little suggestions, big suggestions, wipe the board clean and start over suggestions are all good - just don't worry about typos ... too far to go to worry about that now.
Thanks
------------------------------------------------------------------------
In this video I want to illustrate something very important in science and history -- the principle of converging evidence or consilience as it’s known in science. While it might sound like a word from a Monty Python comedy skit, consilience says that evidence from independent, unrelated sources can converge to strengthen conclusions we make. This means that when multiple sources of evidence are in agreement, the conclusion can be really strong even when the individual sources may not seem as strong on their own.
Another way to describe this principle is that it’s based on the ‘unity of knowledge’, meaning that if we measure the same thing several different ways, it should lead to answers that are very similar if not identical. Let’s take the Golden Gate Bridge for instance and measure its length using a laser rangefinder, or satellite imaging or even a simple yardstick. If those three methods are any good at measuring things, they will all three return a measurement that’s close to the same.
Since each method relies on different natural phenomenon, if one method is in error it is extremely unlikely to be in error in the same way as the other two and a difference in result will be seen. For the same reason, if independent dating methods in geochronology are credible they should give us similar dates when tested independently. The principle is applied comparatively to entirely different fields of science where the results from chemistry or astronomy shouldn't contradict a result in geology, etc.
When several independent methods agree, this is strong evidence that *none* of the methods are in error and the conclusion is correct. For a group of converging measurements to be wrong, the errors would need to be similar for all measurements taken, which is extremely unlikely. This is how scientific theories reach a high degree of confidence — over time they build up a large body of evidence which converges to the same conclusions.
While thinking about how to illustrate this principle, I realized that we use consilience regularly while navigating from place to place in our daily lives. If we accept a single piece of evidence as golden, we might just end up knocking on the wrong door. If we look at the whole of the evidence and how it may or may not converge, we will far more likely be successful.
As example, let’s say you and your hiking partner Shay are going for an outing. She has invited her sister Nico and you are to meet them both at Nico’s house — a house you have never seen. Really all you know about Nico is that she is recently married for the first time and according to Shay, she works as an architect and her husband is an IT professional.
In a voice mail, Shay gives you rough directions and the address as 123 Smith St. She tells you that Nico’s house is an old but recently restored Victorian classic with green trim and is located right next door to large white Presbyterian Church. Shays tells you that she is going over early and will be there when you arrive. You enter the address into your navigation app and head across town when it’s time.
You follow the instructions on your smart phone and soon enough you are at the prescribed address — The street name is correct and right there under the porch light it says 123. Even as you earlier turned onto Smith St, you noticed that you were entering a newer residential tract and you began to feel a sense of unease regarding the accuracy of the directions. You had certainly imagined an older part of town with perhaps larger trees would accompany such a landmark home. The trim on house before you is certainly some shade of green and there is a vague sense of Victorian about the design, but the only church nearby is brick, Baptist and across the street. There is an older car in the drive, kids toys strewn amongst the weeds in the lawn and Shay’s car is nowhere in sight.
Do you knock on the door? You might give Shay a call and ask why her car is not there. You might listen to the voice mail and confirm the address. What you likely won’t do it just happily move forward assuming you have found the correct house. Why not? Well, the lines of evidence have not converged to one safe conclusion. There is a feeling of disarray among the combined indicators. There is no consilience of evidence.
Of the different pieces of evidence available, only the numbers on the side of the house fit in with the entire expected picture when thinking of a recently married professional couple with no kids. Sure enough, when you check the address, you realize that it was Smitt St. and not Smith St. that should have been entered into your smart phone. One letter makes all the difference and it turns out that Smitt Street is just a few blocks over.
Let’s pause for a moment and consider this case where the surroundings or what we might call ‘secondary evidence’ didn't fit in with what most would call the ‘primary’ evidence — the address. Even though at the time you believed your location was totally in line with the primary evidence, you realized your error simply by looking at the convergence or consilience of the other lines of evidence. When you took the principle of consilience into account, you were able to recognize that the chances of an error in your primary evidence were extremely high.
Let’s flip the situation. You immediately reprogrammed your smart phone for the proper address and followed its instructions. Once it told you that you were in the vicinity, you looked around and saw a large white church surrounded by decidedly early 20th century homes. As described, a cute, well maintained classic Victorian design home with green trim sat right next door to the stately church. Sure enough, Shay’s car was parked next to the curb right by the steps leading up to the door. You parked your car behind Shay’s, walked up the steps and confidently rang the bell — quick as a flash you are inside and as it turns out, you never even looked to see if the number on the mailbox was indeed 123 — you didn't need to.
So how do these two situations differ? In both cases you considered multiple lines of evidence and how they converged to come to an easy conclusion regarding the unity of knowledge. Each individual piece of evidence was considered as part of the whole. Not just the address, but the size of the trees, the style of house, the nearby church, kids toys, Shay's car etc. In the first case, the convergence of the secondary evidence was strong enough in opposition of the primary evidence to overpower the primary evidence and cause you to correctly question its validity. In the second case, the consilience of the secondary evidence was so strong in favor as to render the primary evidence literally unnecessary. Shay could have given you nothing more than the description and turn by turn directions and without knowing the street address you would have still knocked on the same door.
Using the principle of consilience, we can much more quickly gain or lose levels of confidence in an idea, assertion, conclusion or hypothesis. Consilience is often critical in elevating a hypothesis to a theory. More independent lines of investigation reaching the same result lead to higher confidence in the ultimate conclusion. If one line of evidence produces a result that is at odds with the consilience of other multiple investigations, it’s likely that the error will be found in the single line of evidence rather than in the converged streams.
Consilience does not forbid deviations, but science wisely doesn't thoughtlessly allow one piece of evidence to overthrow a large body of converged work. It first focuses on learning and understanding why the single stream differs. Perhaps there’s an error. Perhaps there’s a misunderstanding. Perhaps discovered knowledge will lead to coherent integration of the odd stream. This was aptly demonstrated in our navigation example.
Science is never settled. Science is also not a democracy and we would do well to remember that scientific consensus is not the same as political consensus. Where the former is achieved through thoughtful investigation, the accumulation of independently converged evidence and intelligent discussion, the latter is often arrived at through a quagmire of opinion, compromise and presuppositional bias. Consilience and scientific consensus are a numbers game of evidence while political consensus is a numbers game of adherents. Consensus is great, but a scientific consensus built on anything other than consilience of evidence is hollow ground and not good science.
So how do we tell the difference between scientific consensus and political consensus? We must rely on that most productive backbone of science — the prediction. Good science leads to accurate and useful predictions. Consensus without testable predictions is mere dogma.
Edited by ThinAirDesigns, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 612 by RAZD, posted 03-26-2015 11:47 AM ThinAirDesigns has replied

  
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