Where should there be "The right to refuse service"?

At first I thought maybe you're right about that but then Irealized things really have changed in the last few years, about a decade or so perhaps, and escalated more now with gay marriage having actually been the cause of legal action against Christian businesses. plus it now being on the Supreme Court agenda. The first I ever heard of legal action against Christians was the accusations of "hate speech" here and there for preaching the Bible, especially if the subject was homosexuality, a decade ago or so. Here's a GOOGLE PAGE on that.As for Christians talking about coming persecution, as I recall that was mostly about the End Times teachings that had everyone wondering about the timing of the Great Tribulation and whether the Church would go through it or not. There was even a Rumanian pastor who WAS persecuted, under Ceaucescu ---he was brought before the authorities and beaten, and had his laboriously collected library confiscated, all while another Rumanian pastor, Richard Wurmbrand, was in prison for his faith --- who told us his joke about how across the world nobody is wondering when the Tribulation is going to occur, but when the American Church is going to go through it. But I don't recall anything in the direction of a real sense of persecution being about to happen here until gay marriage started developing as a legal issue in a pretty short period of time. It's true that so far, even with the recent escalation to legal action here and there, so far all we have is "soft persecution" compared to the rest of the world. But if you're speaking mostly of Islam, which has recently been increasing its persecutions of Christians, already bad enough, while it dominates in many places now, in most of those places Christianity was there first by some six or seven centuries. Where Hinduism is the persecutor it's true they are older than Christianity in India, but the apostle Thomas is credited with founding the Indian Church so you can't pretend it's a new upstart religion on that continent. Yes all kinds of Christians are getting persecuted across the rest of the world. But in Mexico and other Catholic countries it's the Catholics persecuting the Protestants. I think if you'd really track the events of recent history as I've laid them out above, you'd see a definite escalation.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Here's an email received by a Christian teacher from a minister in Mexico in December of 2012. Thought I'd be collecting more of this kind of information but this is it for now:Fifty million Bible believers murdered in the Inquisition, and then I found out it's still going on in some Catholic countries:

You seem to think that redefining terms changes reality. The fact remains that Christians have done nothing different over the last decade or so but these new definitions have been invented and they do specifically target Christians, redefining the same beliefs we've always had so that they are now criminal, and this is how persecution of Christians has been escalating, which was my point.So now standard Bible preaching is "hate speech" though it never was over the previous millennia, and our stance on homosexuality and gay marriage is now a violation of civil rights after millennia of being just standard Bible teaching.You are all at pains to prove that there is no persecution of Christians, you even seem to want to deny that these redefinitions are new. But they are, and they do aim at criminalizing standard ancient Christian beliefs and actions. At the very least honesty should require you to acknowledge that much.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I picked it up from another Christian Nobody's website like my own and it's not clear where that person got it. Searching didn't turn up that particular incident for me either, but it did turn up reports on this sort of persecution being common in that region of Mexico, such as Persecuted Christians in Mexico kept from returning home. And Here's another one .And here is a Google page with a variety of points of view.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Ah yes, another redefinition aimed at pretending what is actually happening is not happening. At least it's another semantic dodge intended to obscure the reality.OK, how about "Preaching or acting upon our ancient traditional beliefs is now being defined as criminal, by redefining it as "hate speech" and a "violation of civil rights." But there is no such thing as a genuine belief that one DOESN'T preach or act upon. Really, shouldn't you just acknowledge that this is what is happening?Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

My point was simple and factual and you along with all the rest here are engaged in obscuring it. I outlined changes over the last few decades to show that it's only very recently that any kind of law has existed that has brought about legal action against Christians living according to their beliefs.Laws that never existed before. That have subjected Christian business owners to criminal penalties for behaving as they always would have behaved on the basis of their Christian beliefs, and at least a few attempts to criminalize pastors for preaching what they always preach: the Bible, now redefined as hate speech.I gave a link showing that these actions have actually occurred. This is a new thing. Christianity hasn't changed but the laws are changing toward criminalizing them. This is fact. Perhaps the Supreme Court will have an attack of sanity and rationality and not do what we expect them to do, but that's not very likely so this trend can only continue to increase.It's a new thing these laws, and they certainly have the power to criminalize standard Christian beliefs, having found a way to elevate gay marriage above Christian freedoms. So clever. And you all are bending over backwards to deny it or justify it, or whatever your particular method is.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

There's a passage in the Bible that says something like Woe to those who hold a person guilty over a word. That's what you are doing. The point I'm making does not hinge on your petty precision in making an issue over my imprecise use of the word "belief" as opposed to "acting on belief." What I spelled out is factual changes in the law that do criminalize Christians for preaching the Bible or acting on their belief in the Bible, and this has occurred in reality as I showed. Oh I'm sure you can make me a miscreant over some other word though or even the same one since obviously all you care about is obscuring the true point I made while accusing me of something, anything. All your accusations could be true but the point I made is still factual.

Funny how nobody follows the argument: how over the last decade or two standard Christian practice became criminal so that some Christians have come under legal attack, and how brand new this is. No "hate speech" legal action here yet but the concept is on the books and since preachers elsewhere have been targeted by it we can be sure it's just a matter of time here too.All you all have to say is to deny it though it's clear as day what's going on, or approve of it, which is irrelevant. Nobody wants to address how fast all this is happening, this criminalizing of ancient Christian attitudes. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Maybe the "majority" will cave but true Christians won't. Guess we'll see some sorting of sheep from goats.

And another vote of approval without addressing the topic of how fast Christians have come under persecution. I suppose the Antichrist will soon take his place at the head of it all.

Treating sin as not sin is not love. Love requires warning people of the consequences of sin, not pretending they're just fine when they're not,.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I guess only a Christian can see the real motivation in the recent laws: taking down the Bible. And for the umpteenth time there is nothing Biblical in support of racism no matter what some misguided "Christians" claimed.

Funny if it's a lie that I showed how there wasn't persecution and then there started to be persecution. It's a demonstrated fact. But it's still just in the very beginning stages. Shouldn't be too long before it's far enough along to declare it a done deal.

Well I have to give you all credit for creative ways of turning a very simple obvious point into a miserable mess of confusion and false accusation.Punishing sin? That's certainly not the intention. We simply don't want to participate in it, and please let's not go back through how in your opinion making a wedding cake or arranging flowers isn't participating in it. That's our judgment call, not yours, and why on earth would we risk the consequences if we didn't regard it as a mandate from God? We have to keep ourselves free from giving support to sin, it's God's job to judge it, not ours, and for the umpteen thousandth time we're very happy to help with anything that doesn't implicate us in support of gay marriage which is a slap in God's face. We'll sell you anything else, we might even personally walk you to another source. You can't warn about sin while participating in it. That's as good as saying, "Don't worry, you won't go to hell."

Either you just haven't bothered to read back to the beginning of this discussion or you are having a reading problem.