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Author Topic:   In defense of prophecy
PaulK
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Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 3 of 22 (76606)
01-05-2004 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
01-05-2004 7:37 AM


I don't have time to go into details right now but here's a couple of little questions to think about.
How many of the verses you identify as prophecies of Jesus have you read in context ?
Having read them, how many claim to be predictions about a single individual identified as being the literal son of God ? How many say no such thing ?

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 Message 1 by Phat, posted 01-05-2004 7:37 AM Phat has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 5 of 22 (76664)
01-05-2004 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
01-05-2004 7:37 AM


Some more food for thought
Let's start with a question. Is it possible that the NT authors assumed that Jesus was of the House of David based on their prior belief that Jesus was the Messiah ?
I would say that the answer is yes. Luke and Matthew both give genealogies of Joseph, linking him to the House of David. But they are different - they can't both be right. So we certainly can't be sure that they had solid information. And what do inerrantists say about this ? They usually try to argue that the genealogy in Luke is really Mary's. But there is no real basis for this other than the assumption that both genealogies must "somehow" be correct. If modern believers think like that then how can we assume that the athors of the Gospels did not ?
And we can go on. Was Jesus born in Bethlehem ? Luke and Matthew again offer stories - but those stories are very different. Matthew has Joseph and Mary living in Bethlehem and moving to Nazareth after their return to Egypt since they did not want to live under the rule of Herod's son Archeleus. Luke has Joseph and Mary living in Nazareth, but visiting Bethelehem to register in a Roman tax census - a census held after the Romans deposed Archeleus.
SO it is not so far fetched to say that some of the "fulfilments" may be inventions - although we cannot be sure that they were made up by the gospel authors. Even today we can find urban legends cirulating among christians and being mistaken for facts. Of course these days it is easier to check up on the facts but even a story with obvious problems can be circulated - even when many fundamentalists publically state that it is false.
Have NASA computers really proven Joshua's long day? - ChristianAnswers.Net
NASA Discovers a 'Lost Day' in Time? | Snopes.com
And just to show that it is still being propagated:
http://www.geocities.com/guysworldtx/proof.html
But there are other ways prophecies can be fulfilled.
Riding into Jerusalem on a donkey ? Well that's easy - Jesus could simply have done it to fulfill the prophecy.
Or unrelated stories - or even poetry - could be reinterpreted.
Look at all your references - how many verses do you refer to from Psalms which are not given as any sort of prediction ? Or Zechariah which his symbolic of Zechariah's own times ? As for Daniel 9 it is well known that it refers to events 200 years earlier ! There are real problems that have to be addressed before you can claim successful prophecy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 01-05-2004 7:37 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 01-05-2004 4:39 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 8 of 22 (76690)
01-05-2004 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Phat
01-05-2004 4:39 PM


Re: Some more food for thought
No, it wouldn't be fair to go with "Lord, Liar or Lunatic". After all we don't know how that Jesus believed himself to be God (can you find anywhere in any of the three Synoptic Gospels where he makes such a claim ?)
In fact there are profound disagreements over what Jesus actually believed and taught.
Personally I think Jesus was much like modern cult leaders - and I would trust the Gospels just as much as I would trust a Scientology-approved biography of L Ron Hubbard - and for much the same reasons.
And if you have seen all the arguments then you know very well that a good number of your "propecies" are nothing of the sort. If you're willing to pass off resemblances between the Psalms and the Gospels as "prophecies" in full awareness of what you are doing, then what more is there to say ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 01-05-2004 4:39 PM Phat has not replied

  
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