|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: If God Ever Stopped Intervening In Nature.... | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
I don't think I can. A circumference is a property that some object has, not something in and of itself that I can hand to you. Uh, just hand me the circle and the circumference will come with it?Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
I could draw a 1 inch circle on a piece of paper and cut it out and hand it to you, but then, the circumference would really only be an approximation of pi rather than actually being pi. 1. No need to cut it out. I'll take the circle on any surface on which you care to mark it. 2. And your problem is completely unrelated the issue of whether pi is absolute or exact. It is no more difficult to hand me 2 inches as it is to hand me pi inches. 3. You would have the same problem with 1/2. 4. Every four inch piece of string includes an infinite number of different pi length strings. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member
|
Conventional experiments showed that Newtonian physics was "true". Experiments with the LNC show that it is not true in all cases. Your example does not demonstrate ambiguity. It simply demonstrates the inadequacy of a particular tests or set of tests. On the other hand, the statement that Newtonian physics is true (or not true) is ambiguous in another sense. Lots of the physics that Isaac Newton came up with is still believed to be exactly correct while other parts are shown to be at best approximations and at worst, wrong. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Je Suis Charlie Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
Exactly where did you get that supposed quote? I'm usually very careful NOT to say there is no absolute truth. Here Message 64Je Suis Charlie Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
removed as uncharitable. Take foot off of neck.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Je Suis Charlie Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
will gladly retract the denial and also the statement itself. Kinda leaves the person you were debating in a tough spot, eh? He's been relying on what you said.Je Suis Charlie Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
Thanks, NoNukes, for the help there; I thought I had not misquoted Ringo. I don't mind helping out, but I have to admit that ringo's accusatory take on the issue ("supposed quote") irked me just a bit. I suppose I'm old enough that I should let stuff like that go... Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Je Suis Charlie Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass The only thing I suggest is that genes died as a result of all those people and animals dying in the Flood, whose traits were lost to the species and therefore the alleles for those traits, so the genes just died and remain in the genome as corpses. Faith
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
If you are not interested in finding out how I discern between what is ‘real’ (factual, true, and actual) and what is ‘imaginary’ or ‘fake’ then why ask the question?? Perhaps you have not noticed that you are participating in a philosophical discussion about the nature of reality in which the premise is that your perception of reality and the rules under which it operates, including your own sense of yourself as an entity may well be illusion. It may well be that such a discussion is ultimately pointless, but you've blundered into it. It turns that pointing to any method of discerning what is real using reasoning and your senses accomplishes next to nothing, at least for the purposes of this particular rabbit hole which is well distant from any idea included in the OP of this thread. Perhaps you can still escape? Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
Actually, this started off as a discussion of how involved God is in sustaining the universe. Yes. But quite obviously you are nowhere near addressing that issue with the current series of posts. You are instead charging down a blind alley leading nowhere.
However, I do realize that Ringo is trying to put forth the concept that ‘reality’ is an ‘illusion’. No. Ringo is actually asking you to rebut the idea that what you view as reality is illusion. You are responding by reporting your observations which are obtained from your senses and thus are subject to illusion. Regardless of how silly ringo is being, your arguments don't work. There are likely no arguments that will work. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
but I think Ringo is asking about the process you use to establish what you believe is true or real. I don't think your characterization is correct. The scientific method completely avoids the question of whether our measurements, observations, and even our existence are real or fictitious. The assumption is that what we observe is real (absent questions of viewpoint and physical illusions) and that we are real. Ringo is actually asking what I believe is an unanswerable question. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member
|
That's not any scientific method at all. I think that Hugh Ross was not telling the truth to you. The scientific method starts with observation. Then why? Quite frankly, nobody cares where the inspiration for an hypothesis comes from as long as you check that it does fit some observations before getting to far down the path of doing some experiments. If an hypothesis is falsifiable and makes predictions that can be verified by experiment, who cares where it came from. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
it is important to note the "frame of reference So Hugh is describing the creation of the universe from a 'viewpoint' or 'perspective' (because surely, "frame of reference" is a horrible misnomer) that no living being actually occupied? Why would that be a sensible thing to record? It is perhaps understandable that a human being on earth at the time might have mistaken the time of the atmosphere turning transparent as the day the sun and moon were created, but in actuality, nobody could have seen any such thing. Instead man learned of (or made up) the story in Genesis well after all of the events in Genesis 1 and 2 were completed. Now given that there was nobody at reference point X and that the story in Genesis does not claim to be an eye witness account, for what purpose was the giving a bogus and incorrect account of creation. Was it really too much to expect early humans to understand the sun and moon being behind some clouds? I have to admit that in the past when you talked about 'frames of reference', I had assumed that there was some general relativity time/space explanation that munged up the order of events as perceived. But now I learn that we were pretending that some human on earth saw creation, something entirely inconsistent with the story in Genesis itself? Makes no sense to me. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
Of course it makes sense if you understand that Hugh Ross is starting from the position that Genesis literally describes the creation as he understands it. I understand Hugh Ross's motivation. But that is not the point of my question regarding whether his interpretation makes sense. Other than in the same sense that it is meaningful for YECs to claim that there was a canopy of water over the earth until the Flood does it make sense to postulate that Genesis should be viewed as if written by a witness on earth. The question remains as to why or how anyone would write such a description given that most of the events in the description were entirely unseen by any human. As an example, what if Genesis could be interpreted as an accurate view of what someone might think they were seeing if they were located in a black hole and if we excused distortions of events by noting that reality cannot accurately be recorded from that position? Would it be reasonable to call the description accurate on that basis? What if some of the features attributed to black holes were mere speculation? Just when did the earth's atmosphere become translucent? What Hugh Ross describes is how a human might be misled by his senses if he viewed creation from a point on earth. And I say mislead because it is clear that the sun and moon were not created on day four under Hugh Ross' despite the fact that Genesis says such. The atmosphere supposedly merely became transparent on that day. Given that there was no such human in that position, how does it make sense to interpret Genesis as if it records a human experience that never happened. What it seems to say is that God told the authors of Genesis a fairy tale. I find that idea totally unacceptable. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
Hugh is a scientist. He has a tendency to re-express theological concepts in scientific language. Exactly so. We can see that Hugh is not really using the scientific method. He is re-expressing 'creation science' using scientific sounding language. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024