Passover Mystery

Motive Behind the MythsThe archeological discoveries in Ninevah and Babylon radically changed the scholarly understanding about the first five books of the Hebrew scriptures, known as the Law of Moses. All of the earlier historical and mythological material of the Hebrew scriptures had to be reinterpreted. The Books of Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers, which had been attributed to Moses during the years wandering in the desert, were actually brought from Babylon to Jerusalem much later. They were already law books of a thoroughly orthodox priestly tradition, which were ceremoniously established as a Book of Law binding for all Hebrews by the Persian emperor Artaxerxes.No knowledge of the Books of Moses was recorded before 621 bce, which is 600 years after Moses died-if he ever lived. Joseph Campbell explains that the legend of Moses-at least his birth-is modeled on the earlier birth story of the Assyrian Sargon of Agade in 2350 bce, who was also found in the bulrushes as an infant. The adaptation was composed in the 8th century bce and follows the general mythic formula for the birth of the hero. That is, a noble or divine birth, then the infant is exposed or exiled, then found and adopted by a lowly family, and ultimately returned to his true estate with those responsible being laid low. Such legends held great appeal for biographers of ambitious kings and prophets. As with most mythic adaptations, some elements are reversed to make a point. Here, the Hebrew Moses-though adopted-is born lowly and adopted nobly.Despite drawing on the same mythic fund, all religions have a distinct theology that unifies the myths recorded in their sacred scriptures. The theology of the Hebrews, which unified the first five books of their scriptures, was that the twelve tribes of Israel descended from Abraham were given a divine blessing to be realized in their common history. The Hebrew narrative-of the pastoral patriarchs, an Egyptian interlude, then conquest and settlement in Canaan-served a mythic function. We know this narrative is myth and not history because the inconsistencies are easily detected against historical and archeological records.The Hebrew conquest of Canaan had commenced long before the earliest plausible date for the Exodus from Egypt.The cities of Pithom and Raamses, which the enslaved Jews supposedly built, were not constructed until one century later in the period of Ramses II.The Bedouin tribes of Hebrews invading Canaan were not of one family but of many and entered Canaan in stages and from various directions.Viewed as an origin myth-instead of as history-the narrative reveals both the form and function of the religion’s message: a great cycle of descent into the underworld and a triumphal return, i.e., the ancient patriarchs entered Egypt and the Chosen Hebrews emerged.In contrast to other such myths, the Hebrew myth is very different in one degree. The hero is not an individual-not even Moses-instead, it is the Hebrew people. Just an aside, but the festival of the Passover commemorates the exodus of the people. This feast occurs on the same date as the annual sacrifice and resurrection of the Greek god Adonis, who was the consort as well as the son by virgin birth of the mother goddess Demeter. Christianity appropriated this feast date for Easter, which celebrates the death and resurrection of Jesus who was the son by virgin birth of the religion’s only remnant of the primordial mother goddess, Mary. In both the Greek pagan cult and the Christian theistic cult, the resurrection is of a god; whereas in the Hebrew cult, the redemption is of a people.The Hebrew people’s mythic history serves a function that in other cults belongs to an incarnate god. This fundamental difference throughout history has remained Judaism’s second point of distinction among religions of the world-the first being its transcendent monotheism. As Joseph Campbell explains:
One millennium later, the patriarchal desert nomads arrived and all judgments were reversed in heaven as on earth.Thus lies the power of myth. http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/search?encquery...trimmed down url to fix page width - The Queen[This message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 01-08-2004]

Find it yourself.

Abshalom, I thank you so very much, I was a tad shocked by the remark and I am afraid I reacted harshly.Dear Adminnosy ,I deeply apologize but I was a tad offended by the pedantic remark....why can he be snippy and petty with no admonishment?Yet I get the wet noodle?IMHO the tone of the debate was already lowered by ConsequentAtheist. Adding my smiley....OK I am going to be more better I promise........NO need to pick on the new Gal on the block is there?Peace and all that jazz.[This message has been edited by Stormdancer, 01-09-2004]

Consequent Atheist, I do apologize to you for being curt.Now I am going to try this one more time.I see the posters of this message board as very intellectual, Much more talent here then I am capable of keeping up with, but I am going to give it my best shot.It is somewhat intimidating I must say.I can't even remember where I last posted, for heaven sake.OH by the by Athiest, I thought I did provide a link with the info. I posted, now I didn't have much time this morning, but I did find some interesting info on this subject. I will try to post later.The pedantic goddess......lol

about 50 years out of date,Are they?
OK thats good enough for me.UM forgive me but I don't have time to respond further, I hope to be able to later.TY

Brian the information was taken from ,DeMythologizing Religion with Joseph Campbell.Is that outdated?Brian what do you suggest I read?Some quick research on line has brought up some web pages I have only had time to scan,
such as,A Treatise on the Date of the ExodusWhat is reliable?I would love to read the information you have .I am really interested in is the ancient roots of religious beliefs.Please and Thank You, Brian.

CAtheist,The book you posted looks like it is exactly what I am looking for .TY

What Did the Bible Writers Know and When Did They Know It?Interesting,Dever writes that the central proposition of his book is very simple. "While the Hebrew Bible in its present, heavily edited form cannot be taken at face value as history in the modern sense, it nevertheless contains much history." He adds: "After a century of exhaustive investigation, all respectable archaeologists have given up hope of recovering any context that would make Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob credible 'historical figures.'" He writes of archaeological investigation of Moses and the Exodus as having been "discarded as a fruitless pursuit." He is not saying that he believes that the biblical Moses never existed.He is talking about what can be gathered from archaeological evidence.About the historical Moses he writes:the overwhelming archaeological evidence today of largely indigenous origins for earlyIsrael leaves no room for an exodus from Egypt or a 40-year pilgrimage through the Sinai wilderness.A Moses-like figure may have existed somewhere in southern Transjordan in the mid-late13th century B.C., where many scholars think the biblical traditions concerning the god Yahweh arose. But archaeology can do nothing to confirm such a figure as a historical personage, much less prove that he was the founder of later Israelite region.About Leviticus and Numbers he writes that these are "clearly additions to the 'pre-history' by very late Priestly editorial hands, preoccupied with notions of ritual purity, themes of the 'promised land,' and other literary motifs that most modern readers will scarcely find edifying much less historical." Dever writes that "the whole 'Exodus-Conquest' cycle of stories must now be set aside as largely mythical, but in the proper sense of the term 'myth': perhaps 'historical fiction,' but tales told primarily to validate religious beliefs."Dever writes about the attempt to explain the miracles described in Exodus as natural phenomena. About the crossing of the Red Sea he suggests that perhaps it was not really the Red Sea. "The correct rendering of the term yam sf " from the Hebrew Text in Exodus," should not be "Red Sea" but "Reed Sea." Writes Dever on page 16:Some suggest that the Reed Sea was a shallow, marshy area somewhere where the northern section of the Suez Canal is today, where it was possible for people on foot to ford the water, but which would have bogged horses and heavy iron chariots down in the mud.About the conquest of Transjordon, Dever writes:... there cannot have been a king of Edom to have denied the Israelites access, since Edom did not achieve any kind of statehood until the 7th century B.C.Dever describes various three theories on the presence of the Israelites in Canaan. One is the "conquest model," another "the peaceful infiltration model," and the third is the "peasant revolt model," this last model describing the origins of the early Israelite peoples and largely indigenous. Dever describes this last theory as now accepted by "virtually all scholars." On page 189, Dever writes:If early Israel indeed constituted an agrarian movement with strong reformist tendencies driven by a new social ideal, it would not be unique.Dever writes that he wishes that more would follow "the refreshing example" of Rabbi David Wolpe of Sinai Temple, near UCLA, who, in a Passover sermon, according to Dever, said:The Truth is that virtually every archaeologist who has investigated the story of the Exodus, with very few exceptions, agrees that the way the Bible describes the Exodus is not the way it happened, if it happened at all.While Dever's discussion of Israelite origins differs very little from Baruch Halpern's THE EMERGENCE OF ISRAEL IN CANAAN, published over twenty years ago (Chico, CA: Scholars Press, 1983), it will be important for two reasons. First, it will serve as an updated text, in that it seeks to integrate archaeological data collected over the last twenty years into the discussion. And secondly, it seeks to use those data (which were not available to Mendenhall or Gottwald) to support a modified peasant's revolt theory.Dever compares the hill country settlement to the establishment of the 19th-century Oneida Community, the New Harmony community in southwestern Indiana during the same period, and the 18th-century Shaker movement (p. 189), but finally admits that, in regard to the reasons behind the protoIsraelites' withdrawal and settlement, "my theory is speculative ... [with] little archaeological evidence to support it" (p. 179).Another link , http://216.239.37.104/search?q=cache:C7toRvkyVT4J...Not all of Dever’s methods, however, are praiseworthy. He discards the first four books of the Pentateuch as composed of “legendary and even fantastic materials,” with the Exodus and Moses traditions existing as nothing more than late editorial additions that are not even “edifying, much less historical.” Dever fails to take seriously the archaeological work that tends to support the patriarchal and Exodus accounts, such as Kenneth Kitchen’s “The Patriarchal Age: Myth or History?” BAR (March/April 1995), Nahum Sarna's “Abraham in History,” BAR (Dec. 1977), John Currid’s Ancient Egypt and the Old Testament (Baker, 1997), James Hoffmeier’s Israel in Egypt (Oxford, 1997), Nahum Sarna’s “Exploring Exodus: the Oppression,” Biblical Archaeologist 49:2 (1986), or John Bimson’s Redating the Exodus and Conquest (Sheffield, 1978). While Dever might complain that these scholars are too conservative for his taste, it cannot be denied that they are working with the archaeological data.The second millennium B.C. in Palestine is not nearly as well known or documented at this point as is the first millennium, and I suspect that Dever’s analysis of this period will be subject to drastic revision in the not-so-distant future.These are my thoughts also............. edited url to fix page width - The Queen[This message has been edited by Stormdancer, 01-12-2004][This message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 01-12-2004]

As early as 13 centuries before the birth of Jesus, and 200 years before the birth of David, according to a stele now parked in the Cairo Museum, pharaoah Menapteh boasts of his armies' conquest of Israel. "Israel is laid waste . . . his seed is no more," the inscription reads.The mere absence of hard archeological proof does not necessarily invalidate the BibleWhoever wrote the Bible may have exaggerated their achievements for religious or dogmatic purposes.The core of the problem, of course, is that archeology is as much an art as a science, with a good deal of conclusive weight attached to methodologies and dating protocols that are anything but bulletproof."There's nothing certain about archeology. If you want certainty, go into mathematics."
Herschel Shanks[This message has been edited by Stormdancer, 01-12-2004]

Holy Cow, Brian , thank you for the list.Brian, Would it be to daunting a task for you to give me your perspective on this subject?Have you formed a conclusion?Who were the Israelites?
Where did they come from?
Do you believe in the Exodus?
Who is their God?Historical facts for basic questions, you know what I mean?I just want to see if we have formed similar conclusions.Personally I would agree with Dever where he says,"While the Hebrew Bible in its present, heavily edited form cannot be taken at face value as history in the modern sense, it nevertheless contains much history."I would say I am a fence sitter.The Myth of Ba'al. Seven tablets, written on both sides, five columns per side, contain the story. Unfortunately several were badly damaged during their almost 3200 years in the ground, so parts of the story are unclear. The language, however, is quite vivid, and in some cases very beautiful. Scholars now see that the writing style of the Torah is a continuity of that of the Canaanites, and certain expressions and descriptions are virtually identical, while some Canaanite Pagan vignettes have been rewritten in the Bible to support the newer religion. The language describing the deity YHWH shows that many of his characteristics are a combination of the Canaanite El and Ba'al.Now I believe the above, just by studying the Bible and myth, I have not read a lot of books on the subject only the myths.I believe that the deity YHWH and the Canaanite El and Ba'al are closely related .[This message has been edited by Stormdancer, 01-12-2004]

Brian writes,
All I can say is that I haven't really formed an overall opinion, I have quite a few conclusions about the smaller components of the debate,(things such as the 'types' of history contained in the Bible, archaeological data and anthropological models) but I think I will reserve an overal judgement for a while yet, though I am leaning toward the 'we will never know for sure' stance.Well, Brian that is where my head is at too, We wont ever know for sure, I agree.I would add this however.The Myth of Ba'al. Seven tablets, written on both sides, five columns per side, contain the story. Unfortunately several were badly damaged during their almost 3200 years in the ground, so parts of the story are unclear. The language, however, is quite vivid, and in some cases very beautiful. Scholars now see that the writing style of the Torah is a continuity of that of the Canaanites, and certain expressions and descriptions are virtually identical, while some Canaanite Pagan vignettes have been rewritten in the Bible to support the newer religion. The language describing the deity YHWH shows that many of his characteristics are a combination of the Canaanite El and Ba'al.Now I believe the above, just by studying the Bible and myth, I have not read a lot of books on the subject only the myths.I believe that the deity YHWH and the Canaanite El and Ba'al are closely related .Brian writes,
AT the moment I am not a fence sitter, I personally think that the Bible has been more of a hinderance than a help in this investigation, too many man hours have been spent trying to support the individual researcher's religious beliefs rather than investigating,I agree with that also, by fence sitter I did not mean, in a religious way, only that I believe it is an aid in researching and I would not totally want to discount it, the problem is of course weeding out fact from fiction.[This message has been edited by Stormdancer, 01-12-2004]

Thank you for the info. Amlodhi.Abshalom, interesting, I am particularly interested in the cult prostitution.

I just wanted to add to the earlier observation I made concerning YHWH and BA'AL,( I realize that none of this info. is new to the experts on the board however.)While I am awaiting Brian's post on his beliefs regarding the history of Biblical texts.Even Hebrew divine attributes were borrowed from neighboring mythologies. Like Baal, God is said to ride in a chariot of clouds (Ps 68: 4), to speak with a voice of thunder (2 Sam. 22:14), and to appear in a storm (Exod. 19:16-18; Judg. 5: 4-5). Like El, the chief Canaanite god, Yahweh is represented as the creator of children (Deut. 32: 6), lawgiver (Exod. 33: 7-11), judge (Ps. 82), and compassionate deity (Exod. 34: 6). Like the Egyptian sun god of Akhenaton's even more ancient hymn, the God of the Bible is frequently described as the creator and sustainer of life.The Jewish scriptures having first been oral transmission and eventual scribal, over the centuries, myths, legends, hymns and other literary forms were passed down orally from generation to generation.I can see how the Baal may have morphed into YHWH.CA,
Thanks for the tips on the books, by observing some of you earlier post I didn't think you cared for, Finkelstein.

Following much of modern scholarship, Dever questions any historical reliability to the accounts of Joseph in Egypt, the Israelite exodus, and the Wilderness Wanderings. He does, however, recognize the presence of West Semitic peoples in Egypt throughout these periods and observes that some of those employed in the construction projects of Ramses II (13th century B.C.) could have been ancestors of the Israelites who preserved such a tradition of building Egyptian cities (p. 15; cf. Exod. 1:11). Nevertheless, Dever (pp. 15-21) makes an important distinction between matters of faith such as the ten plagues and other miracles, and matters of history that are subject to archaeological investigation.Dever devotes a chapter to the conquest of Transjordan in which he summarizes the archeological data. Even so it is mystifying how, on the one hand, he can recognize that Egyptian scribes of the thirteenth century B.C. and earlier could identify sites such as Dibon in Transjordan (p. 28). Yet, on the other hand, the author spends the remainder of the chapter (pp. 28-35) arguing that because there is no archaeological evidence for thirteenth century B.C. occupation of Tell Dhiban, it could not have existed. If both the biblical writers and the Egyptian scribes of the thirteenth century knew of a site called Dibon, is it not reasonable to suppose that the archaeologists either have the wrong site for ancient Dibon or have somehow missed the settlement at that site? That archaeological evidence should be used to overturn two independent textual witnesses seems unlikely.The chapter on the conquest of the land west of the Jordan outlines the three older models (regarding Israel's appearance in Canaan) of conquest, peaceful infiltration, and peasant revolt; discusses the archaeological evidence from a variety of sites; and dismisses each of the models. However, a careful weighing of the evidence from various sites with a close reading of the text of Joshua does not support these conclusions. For one thing, the fact that Hazor is the only site with a clear burn layer that might coincide with the Israelite appearance in the thirteenth century B.C. must take into consideration Josh. 11:13 which states clearly that Hazor was the only site burned. There are no burn layers at the other sites of Joshua 10 and 11 because, whatever the "conquest" of these sites meant to the biblical writers, it did not mean that they were destroyed by burning. While many of Dever's criticisms of the various models have value, it is better to see here some truth in each one, rather than to dismiss them wholesale. One final note on this section: Ibni is not an "exact linguistic equivalent" of Jabin/Yabin (p. 68).Not FoundNot FoundAbraham Malamat's essay, "The Exodus: Egyptian Analogies," presents a useful collection of primarily New Kingdom texts that provide examples of the sorts of things that Moses and the Israelites are described as doing at the time of the Exodus. For example, there are papyri that record movements of peoples (one being a whole tribe of Edomites) across the tightly controlled Egyptian border, there is a description of two slaves escaping Egypt, wandering into the desert, and being pursued on a similar itinerary as that found in the book of Exodus, and there are workers who are released to celebrate religious festivals and to worship their god.Frank Yurco's "Merenptah's Canaanite Campaign and Israeli's Origins," presents a lucid discussion of the implications of mention of the name, Israel, on the famous Merneptah stele, dating from the end of the 13th century B.C. He argues that the figures portrayed on the fourth relief at the Karnak temple must be Israelites and that these Israelites were indigenous to Canaan. Yurco suggests that the original constituents of Israel could have been a mixture of Sea Peoples, Canaanites, and Shasu Bedouin. He also upholds the idea that only a few hundred or thousand Israelites participated in the exodus from Egypt and therefore it was not particularly noticeable in Egyptian history and archaeology. However, Yurco also concludes that there are bits and pieces of evidence (e.g., the capital at Ramesses, the names of Moses and others, the early death of Ramesses II's son) that could not be explained otherwise than as reflecting an authentic tradition of emigration from Egypt in the 13th century B.C.Donald Redford's brief "Observations on the Sojourn of the Bene-Israel," argues that there is no evidene for a substantial presence of West Semites in the area that Israel inhabited during the 18th through 20 Dynasties. He implies that the eastern defenses were so strong that an Israel never could have gotten through. Thus Redford concludes that the entire story is fiction.William Dever, "Is There Any Archaeological Evidence for the Exodus?" concurs with Redford by arguing a "No" to his question. However, the archaeological evidence of cities such as Ramesses leads Dever to speculate that perhaps the tribe of Joseph did leave Egypt in the 13th century B.C. and journey to Canaan. Nevertheless the absence of occupation in Transjordan and of destruction levels at relevant sites in Cisjordan leads Dever to conclude that there never was an exodus or a conquest.James Weinstein's "Exodus and Archaeological Reality," argues that there is no significant evidence of Egyptian artifacts in the hill country where Israel settled. Therefore, there is no evidence that Israel was a substantial tribal entity by the time of the Merneptah stele. Therefore, there was no exodus as described in the Bible, i.e., a "major outflow of Asiatics from Egypt to Canaan at any point in the XIXth or even early XXth Dynasty."William Ward's "Summary and Conclusions" reiterates the conclusions of Redford, Dever, and Weinstein. He argues that perhaps a single family migrated from Egypt and this formed the basis for the exodus tradition.

Page not found - aish.comMore evidence comes from an ancient victory monument called the "Elephantine Stele." Here is recorded a rebellion in which a renegade Egyptian faction bribed Asiatics living in Egypt to assist them. Although the rebellion ultimately failed, it does confirm that in the same time period when the Israelites were in Egypt, the Egyptians would very likely say, "Come let us deal wisely with them, for if war befalls us, they may join our enemies and fight against us and escape from the land" (Exodus 1:10). "That is precisely what happened in the episode recorded in the Elephantine Stele," Malamat asserts.Biblical criticism comes from the late archaeologist Gosta Ahlstrom. He declares: "It is quite clear that the biblical writers knew nothing about events in Palestine before the 10th century BCE, and they certainly didn't know anything of the geography of Palestine in the Late Bronze age," the time of the desert wandering and subsequent conquest of the land of Canaan. Ahlstrom's proof? He cites the biblical listing of cities along the alleged route that the Israelites traveled immediately before reaching the Jordan River -- Iyyim, Divon, Almon-divlatayim, Nevo, and Avel Shittim (Numbers 33:45-50), and reports that most of these locations have not been located, and those that were excavated did not exist at the time the Bible reports.In the meantime, writings from the walls of Egyptian Temples say differently. It is well known that Egypt had much reason to travel to Canaan in those days; trade, exploitation, military conquest. These routes are recorded in three different Egyptian Temples -- listed in the same order as provided in the Bible, and dated to the exact period of the IsraeliteAnother piece of outside verification is an ancient inscription housed in the Amman Museum. Dating to the 8th century BCE (at least), it was found in the Jordanian village of Deir Alla, which was Moabite territory in biblical times. This inscription tells of a person by the name of Bilaam ben Beor, known to the locals as a prophet who would receive his prophecies at night. These features match precisely the Bilaam described in the Bible (Numbers 21) -- his full name, occupation, nighttime prophecies. And of course, Bilaam was a Moabite.How do revisionists react to this inscription? Dismissively. Says Dever: "They denigrate it as our only known reference. But one unimpeachable witness in the court of history is sufficient. There does exist in Canaan a people calling themselves Israel, who are thus called Israel by the Egyptians -- who after all are hardly biblically biased, and who cannot have invented such a specific and unique people for their own propaganda purposes."Rarely can an archaeologist claim that "this is the very item the Bible spoke about." Yet Dr. Adam Zartal, chairman of the Department of Archaeology at the University of Haifa, may have done it. Joshua 8:30-35 tells of the fulfillment of Moses' command to build an altar on Mount Eval (Deut. 27). Zartal reports that his excavation team found this very altar. The place is right, the time is right, and the animal bones are consistent with the biblical offerings. Even the style of the altar is right, in such detail, says Zartal, that it looks nearly identical to the description of the Temple's altar as described in the Talmud -- a uniquely Israelite design that no Canaanite temples used then or later.Dever sums up the attitude of objective scholars:
"In my view, most of the revisionists are no longer honest scholars, weighing all the evidence, attempting to be objective and fair-minded historians, seeking the truth. Determined to unmask the ideology of others, they have become ideologues themselves. The revisionist and the postmoderns are dangerous because they have created a kind of relativism -- an anything goes attitude -- that makes serious, critical inquiry difficult if not impossible."Prof. Adam Zartal, chairman of the Dept. of Archaeology at the University of Haifa has this to say about archaeology and the Bible:After years of research, however, I believe it is impossible to explore Israel's origins without the Bible. At the same time, the research should be as objective as possible. The Bible should be used cautiously and critically. But again and again we have seen the historical value of the BIble. Again and again we have seen that an accurate memory has been preserved in its transmuted narratives, waiting to be unearthed and exposed by archaeological fieldwork and critical mind work.Joshua's Altar ?http://www.shechem.org/machon/engevala.htmlhttp://www.shechem.org/machon/sites/eval/jarmp.jpgEvidence for Dating the Mt. Ebal AltarIn the fill of the Mt. Ebal altar, along with bones and pottery sherds, we found an Egyptian-style scarab. Within an oval frame, the scarab displays a geometrical pattern consisting of a four-petal rosette and, between the petals, four branches. From each branch comes a uraeus (an Egyptian cobra).This scarab is very rare; only five known parallels existone from Egypt, three from Israel and one from Cyprus. AD these parallels date this special find to the period between the reigns of Ramses II (19th dynasty; 13th century B.C.) and RamsesIII (20th dynasty; beginning of 12th century B.C.)This scarab fixes the earliest date for the construction of the Mt. Ebal altar; it could not have been built before the 13th century B.C. Moreover, because this scarab comes from a stratigraphically sealed locus, together with a well-dated pottery sequence, it has even greater chronological significance-it gives us an approximate date for the original erection of the altar and cultic center.Other distinctive pottery forms buttress the argument for a 13th-12th century B.C. date for the Ebal altar. Collar-rim jars were commonly used storage vessels during the settlement period and are dated by archaeologists to the 13th through the llth centuries B.C.Excavators discovered a collar-rim jar in a circular stone installation in the altar's courtyard. Since they found no ashes in the vessel, they assume that it once contained a non-burnt offering.Pottery handles decorated with designs of reed-holes (top left) and a "man's face" (center left) were discovered during the survey of the territory of Manasseh. The dearly recognizable handles are now used as indicators that the strata in which they appear date from the Israelite settlement period.[This message has been edited by Stormdancer, 01-13-2004]