This Bathroom Law Confusion

I'm not at all trying to be anti-trans, but isn't it inherent that the individuals at some point are kind of in physical gender limbo-land?At what point does one who makes the female to man physical transition, make the transition from using the women's restroom to using the men's restroom?Which restroom should the physically male but psychologically female individual use?Moose

I consider her to be both physically and psychologically female. Not really part of my question.What about when she was physically male but (I presume) psychologically female?MooseEdited by Minnemooseus, : Screwed up quote box and didn't preview.

So, which bathroom should be used by the Bruce Jenner of 10 years ago?MooseEdited by Minnemooseus, : Add subtitle.

I take from this that you think Bruce Jenner's gender identity was "male" 10 years ago (I presume he was using the male bathroom).My understanding is that his personal gender identity was already female back then, and thus by your reasoning, should have been using the female bathroom.Moose

Now, the above is female to male transgender, and self identifies as male. So he uses the male room. Fine.-----But what if s/he is male to female transgender, and self identifies as female. Should he be using the female room?The liberal view seems to say "Use the room of your identity". What is his/her "identity"?Moose

Don't know him, so I can't ask him. But since he understands he is "presenting as male" and thus using the male room, no problem. It seems that "presenting as" overrides "self-identifying" is cases where the two may be in conflict. And there isn't any such conflict in this case.My problem is that the term "self-identifying" has been used a lot, without a clear definition of what is meant. To me, a person who is "presenting as" a woman can at the same time be "self-identifying" as being a man. And it seemed that there was a broad feeling that a person should be able to choose the room based on "self-identity". Which seems to say that a woman to man transsexual who is at a "presenting as" a woman stage should be free to use the "self-identity" male room.Moose

Related reading material, in a topic started by a transgender person:http://www.secularcafe.org/showthread.php?t=36364Moose

The 10th paragraph:

quote:

---

I've envisioned myself, looking like I do and walking into a woman's restroom. I visualize the wide-eyed stares and those ladies quickly grabbing their property and leaving. What is worse is the idea of scaring the crap out of the very young girls who I envy so much. I don't know what would be worse. To drive them out of a place which should be a sanctuary for them or having the reality of being rejected, yet again for having the curse of being born in a man's body.

---

Find anywhere where I advocate that a male appearing person should use a woman's restroom. Don't blow too much time trying, because it never happened.A more substantial message later (maybe).MooseAdded by edit - By the way, all my messages prior to posting the link to the Skeptic Cafe topic were done before I ever saw that topic.Edited by Minnemooseus, : Added by edit.

So a transgender person who physically appears to be male but is psychologically female should be free to use the ladies room. That may be fine and dandy morally and legally, but even the most pro-trans people think that that will cause, at the minimum, a lot of tension for all parties involved.As I understand it, Rrhain does not advocate that a male appearing person use the ladies room, nor does the transgender person from the Skeptic Cafe site topic. Nor do I.Or am I wrong about Rrhain's position: I repeat: Define "gender identity". To me, that is the psychological identity.So a very male appearing but psychological female person should use the ladies room? Rrhain, rather than a long message saying I'm an ignorant transphobe, how about a simple yes or no answer to that question.And I think what may or may not be hiding under clothing is irrelevant.Moose