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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: This Bathroom Law Confusion | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
I'm not at all trying to be anti-trans, but isn't it inherent that the individuals at some point are kind of in physical gender limbo-land?
At what point does one who makes the female to man physical transition, make the transition from using the women's restroom to using the men's restroom? Which restroom should the physically male but psychologically female individual use? Moose
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Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
Take that cute little 14-year old in Rrhain's message above. Do you think she doesn't know which bathroom is most appropriate for her? I consider her to be both physically and psychologically female. Not really part of my question. What about when she was physically male but (I presume) psychologically female? Moose Edited by Minnemooseus, : Screwed up quote box and didn't preview.
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Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
The question Moose raises is trivially answered: You use the bathroom that is appropriate. One of the things about being trans is that you are putting in the effort to be the sex you identifying with. Thus, despite the fact that you may have not had any surgery, you are doing all the other things that signify your gender (because sex is not gender) and thus, you use the bathroom that corresponds with your gender identity. So, which bathroom should be used by the Bruce Jenner of 10 years ago? Moose Edited by Minnemooseus, : Add subtitle.
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Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
Rrhain, in message 34, also quoted in message 38, writes: ...you use the bathroom that corresponds with your gender identity. Rrhain, in message 48 writes: quote: The one he used. I take from this that you think Bruce Jenner's gender identity was "male" 10 years ago (I presume he was using the male bathroom). My understanding is that his personal gender identity was already female back then, and thus by your reasoning, should have been using the female bathroom. Moose
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Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
Now, the above is female to male transgender, and self identifies as male. So he uses the male room. Fine. ----- But what if s/he is male to female transgender, and self identifies as female. Should he be using the female room? The liberal view seems to say "Use the room of your identity". What is his/her "identity"? Moose
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Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
Here's a thought: Why don't you ask him? Because you do know that such a person understands that he is presenting as male, yes? Don't know him, so I can't ask him. But since he understands he is "presenting as male" and thus using the male room, no problem. It seems that "presenting as" overrides "self-identifying" is cases where the two may be in conflict. And there isn't any such conflict in this case. My problem is that the term "self-identifying" has been used a lot, without a clear definition of what is meant. To me, a person who is "presenting as" a woman can at the same time be "self-identifying" as being a man. And it seemed that there was a broad feeling that a person should be able to choose the room based on "self-identity". Which seems to say that a woman to man transsexual who is at a "presenting as" a woman stage should be free to use the "self-identity" male room. Moose
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Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
Related reading material, in a topic started by a transgender person:
http://www.secularcafe.org/showthread.php?t=36364 Moose
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Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
You realize that that article isn't helping you, yes? 10th paragraph gives the lie to your argument. The 10th paragraph:
quote: Find anywhere where I advocate that a male appearing person should use a woman's restroom. Don't blow too much time trying, because it never happened. A more substantial message later (maybe). Moose Added by edit - By the way, all my messages prior to posting the link to the Skeptic Cafe topic were done before I ever saw that topic. Edited by Minnemooseus, : Added by edit.
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Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
Regardless of what this person looks like, they and not the rest of us ought to decide which bathroom he goes into. So a transgender person who physically appears to be male but is psychologically female should be free to use the ladies room. That may be fine and dandy morally and legally, but even the most pro-trans people think that that will cause, at the minimum, a lot of tension for all parties involved. As I understand it, Rrhain does not advocate that a male appearing person use the ladies room, nor does the transgender person from the Skeptic Cafe site topic. Nor do I. Or am I wrong about Rrhain's position:
Rrhain, in message 34, quoted by me in message 38 writes: The question Moose raises is trivially answered: You use the bathroom that is appropriate. One of the things about being trans is that you are putting in the effort to be the sex you identifying with. Thus, despite the fact that you may have not had any surgery, you are doing all the other things that signify your gender (because sex is not gender) and thus, you use the bathroom that corresponds with your gender identity. I repeat:
...you use the bathroom that corresponds with your gender identity. Define "gender identity". To me, that is the psychological identity. So a very male appearing but psychological female person should use the ladies room? Rrhain, rather than a long message saying I'm an ignorant transphobe, how about a simple yes or no answer to that question. And I think what may or may not be hiding under clothing is irrelevant. MooseProfessor, geology, Whatsamatta U Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment. "Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham "The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith "Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien "I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose
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