This Bathroom Law Confusion

Fear -> Anger -> Hatred Because rapists might dress in a skirt to access the women's showers and perverts might film the women. And children, won't somebody think of the children? This is on the best points I've seen made on this topic. Bravo.I understand what you've been through here so I assure you that that was sincere, it was not sarcasm. That is a great point, well made. Depends who 'they' are.The politicians aren't. They want to convince their voters of this, and it is working a bit. But it is a bit of a misfire, especially based on the evidence of your perspective.It's the same plays the hateful have used against blacks and gays but which have been defeated. The same as when gay men use the men's bathroom and gay women use women's bathroom and bisexual people use either.Nothing needs sorting because most people don't think public toilets are sexy. Your astonishment is equal to the astonishment you have seen from the left regarding refusing to bake cakes for gay weddings.I'm not trying to persuade you, but maybe you can use this to build empathy with your opponents? It's not being imposed though is it? It's just a fact about humans that we have to learn how to deal with. Most of the burden of dealing with it has historically been placed on the transgendered.They were ostracized, denied lifesaving medical care, attacked, raped etc., etc., with little consequences to the perpetrators.Now people are increasingly agreeing that this is a terrible way to deal with the facts. This terrifies the right who want to codify laws as a way to extend the hate. Empathy mode. Let's imagine you are transgender and you and your friends spontaneously visit a restaurant, cafe or bar. You go to use the toilet that matches your gender, but is at odds with the sex you were assigned at birth. The manager says you can't. Now you have to use a toilet that feels wrong or leave.You've been embarrassed, been personally insulted (if someone denied you service because they questioned your femininity, you'd be upset), and now you have to cut the social event short or potentially put your safety at risk (I can tell you from personal experience that going into a man's restroom when you look like a girl is a terrifying experience in some places).Wouldn't it make life better if people could go to new places without having research their policy towards irrelevant personal details about them? These 'pro-LGBT' laws are about providing security, confidence, and remedy against hate and bigotry and simple ignorance based discrimination which are harmful to society as a whole. As you know, not all transgendered people 'fool' all of the people all of the time. Some transgendered people are clearly gendered differently than their sex.Sex hormones are powerful, and they leave many clues. Clues that humans are very very adept at spotting. A person that transitions during puberty may be utterly indistinguishable from a person of that sex from birth. A poor person who transitions in their late 30s? That's a big clue. And not all transgendered people opt for sex reassignment, and avoid hormone treatment even if they can afford it.There's quite a lot of late transitioners, because deciding to transition is a huge decision that many people resist taking until they can't handle it any more when they live in a society that won't even let transgendered people take a piss in peace. Yeah, bigotry *is* confusion and misunderstanding.They hate 'Queerness'. I identify as queer, and some people simply hate it. It's bigotry. Another fact about humans. I don't intend to inhibit the bathroom usage of bigots, however. Except you can't be sure that you will be able to, without having to talk to a stranger about the history of your genitals. It *shouldn't* be necessary, but there are enough massive asshats who want to deny service to queerfolk relying on the ambiguity of it not being explicitly illegal....that making it explicitly illegal is seen as a necessary step.Transgender folks are relatively rare, so most people don't encounter this situation regularly. Transgender folk on the other hand - have to stress and angst and worry every single time they use a public convenience. Transgendered people haven't caused any particular problems historically from their bathroom usage.
But cisgendered people HAVE caused problems.Hence the need for the laws. Who decides whether someone 'looks like' the sex that is on the door? Some people look female, but maybe their hands are a little big, their chin a little chiselled, a touch of stubble is visible, an Adam's apple is poorly hidden....or maybe conversation reveals the trans nature of the individual. Cross dressing is made illegal - 1848Christine Jorgensen tried to marry a man, but this was denied. The man she wanted to marry lost his job because he wanted to marry her. - 1959Dewey's Coffee Shop refused to serve transgendered people - 1965Compton's Cafeteria riot, owners called the police on transgendered customers, the police attempted to arrest on grounds that cross dressing was illegal, protests and rioting followed. 1966The courts denied changing sex information on birth certificates (1966, 1968), meaning straight transsexual women could still not marry men.

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Ulane is entitled to any personal belief about her sexual identity she desires. After the surgery, hormones, appearance changes, and a new Illinois birth certificate and FAA pilot's certificate, it may be that society, as the trial judge found, considers Ulane to be female. But even if one believes that a woman can be so easily created from what remains of a man, that does not decide this case...Since Ulane was not discriminated against as a female, and since Title VII is not so expansive in scope as to prohibit discrimination against transsexuals, we reverse the order of the trial court and remand for entry of judgment in favor of Eastern on Count I and dismissal of Count II.

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Ulane lost her job. 1984mid 70s through to mid 80s - laws prohibiting cross dressing began to get struck down by the courts. Schools remain a cross dressing free zone for the most partNancy Burkholder was removed from a women's festival when she was identified as being transgendered. 1991Karen Kopriva transitioned as a teacher causing much controversy. 1998The Rita Hester murder. 1998The Sixth Circuit rules that Title VII of the civil rights act, the one at the heart of Ulane's case, should be interpreted as allowing trangendered women to claim discrimination due to their sex. 2004Gender identity-based discrimination on the federal jobs web site USAJobs is banned by Obama, 200811th Circuit court concurs that firing Vandy Beth Glenn for transitioning was wrongful. 2011Mia Macy is denied a job. Title VII of the Civil Rights act, is interpreted by the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission as prohibiting discrimination of transgendered individuals - 2012.Executive Order 13672 - adding 'gender identity' and 'sexual orientation' to the list of individuals protected against hiring discrimination for federal contractors and sub contractors. 2014Instant dismissal from the military for being transgendered is apparently no longer a thing. 2015 Tamara Lusardi transitioned, but was forced by her superiors to use the male bathroom. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission ruled this was not legal, April 2015Transgendered teens (who are too young for sex reassignment surgery) start fighting for the right to use the bathroom and locker room etc., of their gender identity. Summer 2015Bathroom Bills start popping up...spring 2015 - 2016.The idea that Conservatives are freaking out in response to liberal lawmaking may be true, but liberal law making is because of the impacts to real people that Conservative law making and conservative social views being enacted with those with power against others were having.If society had not been historically and apparently contemporarily so shitty towards these people there'd be no need for the laws, you are right. But they have and they are so laws are needed.Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

Answer - whenever and whichever they want, respectively. To the first: usually very early into the process, meaning the answer to the second is typically 'female' once the path to transition has started.Typically transitioning occurs as part of a psychological plan. The first question is still often 'when do I make the transition from 'in the home' to 'out and about'?'. The answer: As soon as you are comfortable doing so. Let's work on confidence and understanding your expectations.The bathroom switch is another big one, a time which should be mundane but at which you are often socially forced to declare to idle observers what sex/gender you are. Do I look feminine enough to use the ladies without suffering sniggers, malicious comments or even vociferous outrage?Then, am I too feminine to use the men's room? Will I be mocked, assaulted,sexually assaulted or worse?Ah screw it, I'm going home to watch Mulan and cry.A good strategy for confidence issues the these days is start at gay bars, then at some of the satellite businesses, then try out some 'hipster' or other liberalesque subcultures before going somewhere mainstream. However, if you are working in an office environment or are at school, going mainstream may be thrust upon you early...Then again, it depends on the speed and nature of the transition. At some point it feels utterly preposterous to go into a male bathroom. Not just because you feel you are a woman, but because you are clearly and wildly out of place there and its more embarrassing to simply be there than to tolerate any potential sniggers from using the other.It's an early part of the process, and psychologists/therapists will use this difficult decision to assist getting comfortable with living the transition full time long before genitals start being surgically altered.

Well thank you for taking the time anyway. I didn't want to flood you with multiple posts so I took the risk of a single one. Thing is, there is no militant campaign to change your experiences. Those experiences were already there, they were just secretive and causing pain and fear for those holding the secret.Transgender people haven't 'suddenly' started campaigning for rights, and they haven't 'suddenly' started taking people to court. What's different now is that more politicians and judges have sympathetic perspectives which is resulting in successful law suits and legal changes. If you wanted time to get used to it, you guys should have given transgender people the rights and recognition they've been asking for in a more spread out way rather than the sporadic landmarks they've fought desperately for over the last 150 years. Now you're facing something of a damn bursting scenario, I can't feel a huge amount of sympathy. I know, but from our point of view, they aren't all that different. I was hoping this would he helpful for you in understanding us better. I get it, I really do. No really. Cisgendered people haven't shutup about their angst about how to deal with transgendered folk for as long as I remember. It's nice that they are coming around to 'don't treat them like crap'.I understand the new and weird is scary. But transgendered individuals are not new. The issues we discuss today, have been discussed for decades and decades and decades. There are two primary groups to blame therefore, for ignorance and fear about transgendered peoplea) the ignorant. The internet is right here, most of the ignorant in question have access.
b) education system. Social Conservatives have suppressed discussion of these issues in schools. I'm not sure how I am out for blood, Faith. This seems like an absurd overreaction. I am not your worst fears of the liberal movement of the USA. The confused and fearful act in line with the wishes of the hateful, even if they do so without malice. From the perspective of the hated, the distinction is purely academic. How should it been done better?I mean the fact that transgendered people exist is not secret. The fact is reflected in music, tv, film, art and is all over the internet - from legal discussion to pornography.Humans need to go to the toilet.Toilets are segregated by sex.The facts are all known, the subject has been discussed in public venues. The news covered instances of transgendered people who were denied access to restrooms. If you were blindsided, you really have yourself to blame.And given the sources you have publicly posted that you use, anybody who is surprised by all of this simply wasn't paying attention to sources that report what's actually happening in the world correctly.People HAVE attempted to explain it, for decades those answers have been readily available. If you feel blindsided, you can just read and realize its all part of a bigger picture. You'd see that both pro and anti trans bathroom bills were almost inevitable.People were confused, so the legislature have attempted to make laws to make things clear.Yes, people are afraid. It is called 'transphobia'. The remedy is education. Many people are not educating themselves, so sometimes 'militant' outreach is needed. I am not blinded in the fashion you accuse.I was telling you why the laws are felt to be necessary. Laws are about engendering trust and assisting freedom. Transgendered people have had their freedom curtailed, and we shouldn't wait for all of the ignorant to catch up. Law in commerce enables two entities to trade with confidence, this is good for society. These law serve a similar social purpose. That's all.I get that some people are freaked out. What can be done, Faith? People freak out in horrid ways at times, we can't let 'freaking out' be an excuse for causing harm to others.Some people, I remind you, still freak out about interracial, interfaith and homosexual relationships. We can only point out that they are being horrid and should rethink and why. What else do you want us to do? The more vociferous we are, the more people call us 'politically correct fascists' or something - the more silent we are the less change occurs.... Cercle Hermaphroditos, 1895
Mattachine Society, 1940s
Transvestia: The Journal of the American Society for Equality in Dress, 1952
Transvestia, 1960
Hose and Heels Club, 1962
Dewey's Coffee Shop, 1965
Compton's Cafeteria Riot, 1966
National Transsexual Counseling Unit, 1968
Stonewall Riots, 1969
The 70s:
Andy Warhol
Queens {magazine}
Transsexual/Transvestite Action Organization
National March on Washington for Lesbian and Gay Rights, 1979
FTM International, 1986
The Empire Strikes Back: A Posttranssexual Manifesto, 1987
Southern Comfort Conference, 1991
Transgender Nation, 1992
GenderPAC, 1995
National Gender Lobby Day, 1996
Transgender Day of Remembrance, 1998
Transgender Pride flag, 1999
National Transgender Advocacy Coalition, 1999
Transgender Foundation of America , 2001
Transgender Network, 2002
National Center for Transgender Equality, 2003
San Francisco Trans March, 2004
International Transgender Day of Visibility, 2009Did all that. Sorry you hadn't noticed. The screams you were blocking out included accusations that you were ignoring us, by the way.

Fair enough, as long as you guys can agree to stop reacting to ordinary people who you fear by treating them as presumed monsters. And I don't mean 'call them names' or 'sue them' I mean, could you not fire them, deny them employment, allow them to use the restroom, the water fountain, marry their partners, adopt children...you know treat them like the ordinary non-monstrous people they should be presumed to be unless proof given to the contrary.

Really? So if we replace the word 'transgender' with
a) Family
b) Patriot
c) Christian
d) Evangelical
e) VeteransYou would say they all sounded like aggressive provocations?Did you investigate any of them to see what they did?Employment | National Center for Transgender Equality
Identity Documents & Privacy | National Center for Transgender Equality
Page not found - OutCareThese groups are specifically designed to help transgendered people and their family but also to advocate within the community to educate people about trans issues. EXACTLY what you were demanding.You have just proven that your prejudices against transgendered individuals has resulted in you specifically ignoring them doing what it is you are demanding they should have done.
This has been on the internet exactly 1 year today. Again, Transgendered people, and their liberal allies, have been talking about these issues for decades, and these laws since they were first proposed. They aren't secret. You could have read or listened to them at any time.Three points
1) This was done. If your sources of information didn't pass this to you, they suck
2) There are no new laws being proposed, only slight modifications and interpretations by the courts of existing ones. Such as the Civil Rights Act, 1964
3) The Republicans are the ones proposing new laws and using FEAR to get them passed.
February 2015 - a report that thousands had spoken against the Carolina bill before it was passed.
March 2015, radio discussion
June, 2015 - contains footage of Huckabee and a political ad drumming up fear and misinformation
September 2015
March 2015, viral campaign - already referenced in this thread Transgender folks have been campaigning and trying to get you to understand their issues for decades. All of the information you needed about civil rights and transgender issues was not only available one google search away, but had, in part, been given to you repeatedly here at EvC, sometimes by me.Transgender people had struggled and complained about people forcing them to use incongruent bathrooms, or denying them service, or denying housing, denying marital rights....and it wasn't until the courts agreed that you noticed? That's nobody's fault but your own. It wasn't until after people put absurd counter laws in place that you realized the problem? That's too late. You have a duty as a voter to be informed before bills get passed. Especially ones where a huge campaign explaining the problems, exactly as you asked for, was mounted - and apparently ignored. As I said, I get it. But it's not a 'new' social project. Transgender people campaigned and mostly failed to get rights through the 60s and70s. They did a little better through the 80s, but the real turning point came around 1998. Since then they have been scoring regular victories in securing rights and protections. All part of US culture, this trend has been visible in TV, film, music to name but a few. There are whole websites dedicated to discussing these issues, and entire groups dedicated to advocating and informing people of these issues.If you'd stop complaining about how much of a surprise this long slow struggle for basic decency has come to you and others, and instead spent the time informing yourself of things by listening to transgendered people rather than pundits talking about transgendered people - you'd be less frightened.We've been telling the right the tide is changing. We showed you graphs showing you the attitude changes in American attitudes. You complained the tide was changing. Everyone on your side has been complaining of this 'moral slide'. You knew it was happening. And we were telling you all about it, and why it was and giving you our perspective.You don't get to blame us if you didn't choose to listen, and preferred instead to focus on some mean words some people called *you*.

In time you will learn that they are not worried about that at all and that this is just a ruse.The are actually worried society might be nice to transgender folks who they think are disgusting and they want society to be nasty to them.You see the video with the guy in a beard following a little girl? That's what their laws allow rather than prevent. Any guy with a beard can claim to be FTM (female-to-male) trans and that therefore they are legally obligated to use the little girls room.If they are truly afraid of this they would enact laws
a) mandatory bathroom attendant
b) no unsupervised children in bathrooms
c) child only bathrooms.Instead, they are now allowing men to walk into women's toilets without even needing to disguise themselves as women. This is obvious. They know this. They don't care. They just want to current humiliate trans people and intimidate trans people who have not gone public - but they can't say that so they make up a bullshit excuse, even one that is transparently bullshit because they hope enough people will buy it.They've miscalculated.

Nope.People who will freak out at such laws
a) transgender people
b) anybody who knows transgender people
c) people with empathy for transgender peopleNew problems arise, such as the mental health consequences to transgender people for being forced to hide their medical condition (it is a medical condition with medical treatments) in secrecy and shame.Problem solved? How many child molestors can you think who would be deterred from committing a sexual assault because of dress code violations? How many child molestors bother to dress as women in the commission of their crimes at the moment?New problems? Housing problems. Marital problems. Child-rearing problems. Employment problems.The USA tried your solution. It really doesn't work, proven through experience.

Given the freak-outs that occurred when the government required disabled access AND to serve black people...I can't imagine asking businesses to replumb and re-configure at the cost of thousands because of 'the transgendered' is going to calm things down.Of course, basically nobody was freaking out a few years ago. Some people with power freaked out and FORCED transgender women to use the men's toilet and threatened transgendered people's jobs and liberty to get their way. The laws are not to silence the crazies.The laws are to protect the sane from the crazies So why don't we just explain why they don't need to freak out or wait for the people that won't change to die off? Like we did with the racists? I guess some people still freak out about interracial marriage, but so what? We criticize them and move on. It's only a problem when those people have power and use their power to further their racist views.... We do treat it, sometimes even curing it. Apparently this freaks people out.

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Gender dysphoria or gender identity disorder (GID) is the formal diagnosis used by psychologists and physicians to describe people who experience significant dysphoria (distress) with the sex and gender they were assigned at birth. Evidence suggests that people who identify with a gender different from the one they were assigned at birth, may do so not just due to psychological or behavioral causes, but also biological ones related to their genetics, the makeup of their brains, or prenatal exposure to hormones.[1]...
The current main psychiatric approaches to treatment for persons diagnosed with GID are psychotherapy or to support the individual's preferred gender through hormone therapy, gender expression and role, or surgery.

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