Summations Only

No Faith, you are simply talking. You have not provided any support for your position that there is a basic absurdity of stacks of time periods, one on top of another with separate environments stacked one on top of another, containing separate collections of living things. Perhaps if you concentrated on that you might make some progress. Yet you have already admitted several times that you cannot explain how any flood could sort materials or biological samples in the order found in reality. Unfortunately Walther's Law does NOT explain the ordered sequences found in reality. Except as usual that is simply not true Faith. The layers do not look all about the same age which is why geologists have not assigned all the layers to the same time period. We know you keep repeating that Faith yet you have never provided any evidence in support of that assertion. Again Faith, that is simply not true. There are no mentions of volcanic or tectonic activity in either of the Biblical flood myths. Yes Faith, we have heard you assertions but again you have never produced any evidence to support such assertions.The problem Faith is you have nothing but imagination and fantasy while the conventional positions is supported by actual facts and evidence.Finding a fossil imprint of a leaf inside a rock is absolute and irrefutable proof that the leaf fell from a tree on a surface environment onto the ground BEFORE that ground turned into a rock.Finding a tree stump inside a rock is absolute and irrefutable proof that the tree grew on a surface environment BEFORE that ground turned into a rock.Finding a fossil critter inside a rock is absolute and irrefutable proof that the critter lived on a surface environment BEFORE that ground turned into a rock.Finding a fossil imprint of tracks inside a rock is absolute and irrefutable proof that a critter lived and walked on that surface environment BEFORE that ground turned into a rock.Finding petrified stream ripples inside a rock is absolute and irrefutable proof that a stream ran across that surface environment BEFORE that ground turned into a rock.Finding petrified sand dunes inside a rock is absolute and irrefutable proof that a desert surface environment was there BEFORE that ground turned into a rock.Ancient environments are as real as an Old Earth and as evidenced as anything happening today.

It's interesting that the "Neat" layers seen in the Grand Canyon are actually marine and terrestrial, show several incursions, record an ancient desert and quite a few unconformities which are absolute evidence of periods when a layer was at the surface and eroded away.From the Wiki entry on the Geology of the Grand Canyon:

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The nearly 40 major sedimentary rock layers exposed in the Grand Canyon and in the Grand Canyon National Park area range in age from about 200 million to nearly 2 billion years old. Most were deposited in warm, shallow seas and near ancient, long-gone sea shores in western North America. Both marine and terrestrial sediments are represented, including fossilized sand dunes from an extinct desert. There are at least 14 known unconformities in the geologic record found in the Grand Canyon.

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Note yet again the emphasis on the fact that what is actually recorded is time and change over time and that the layers show shallow seas, ancient sea shores, marine and terrestrial environments and even a desert.

And it applies ONLY to specific conditions, transgressions and regressions which are a very limited set of conditions compared to all the other various things found in reality. It makes no sense to try to apply Walther's Law to aeolian samples or to varves or to intrusions and extrusions.

You keep making unsupported claims and truly idiotic assertions. For a leaf to be picked up and deposited by the Biblical Flood and environment where the leaf grew on a tree had to have existed at the time.Further no one including you has EVER been able to provide a Biblical Flood model that explains the ordered biological samples that exist in reality.The conventional theory is supported by evidence, model, mechanism, process, procedure while all you have is fantasy.

As has been pointed out Walther's Law does explain what should be seen during periods of sea transgression and recession but what is actually seen in reality is far more complex and varied than simple sea transgression and regression so to claim that Walther's Law explains what is seen in reality is patently false.What is seen but NOT explained by Walther's Law is marine sediment layering, varves, cross bedding, limestone and other biological rocks, the formation of sandstone, mudstone, shale, peat, coal, magma metamorphism, intrusions, extrusions, faulting, weathering, channels, biological fossils, fossil tracks, imprints, pillow lava, trapps, flood debris, glacial carving, unconformities, non-conformities, folding and almost everything actually found in reality.

Once again Faith that is just refuted by reality.From Message 1044:

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It's interesting that the "Neat" layers seen in the Grand Canyon are actually marine and terrestrial, show several incursions, record an ancient desert and quite a few unconformities which are absolute evidence of periods when a layer was at the surface and eroded away.

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From the Wiki entry on the Geology of the Grand Canyon:

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The nearly 40 major sedimentary rock layers exposed in the Grand Canyon and in the Grand Canyon National Park area range in age from about 200 million to nearly 2 billion years old. Most were deposited in warm, shallow seas and near ancient, long-gone sea shores in western North America. Both marine and terrestrial sediments are represented, including fossilized sand dunes from an extinct desert. There are at least 14 known unconformities in the geologic record found in the Grand Canyon.

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Note yet again the emphasis on the fact that what is actually recorded is time and change over time and that the layers show shallow seas, ancient sea shores, marine and terrestrial environments and even a desert.

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What is seen but NOT explained by Walther's Law is marine sediment layering, varves, cross bedding, limestone and other biological rocks, the formation of sandstone, mudstone, shale, peat, coal, magma metamorphism, intrusions, extrusions, faulting, weathering, channels, biological fossils, fossil tracks, imprints, pillow lava, trapps, flood debris, glacial carving, unconformities, non-conformities, folding and almost everything actually found in reality. It is necessary for anyone to consider either of the Biblical Flood myths as actually happening instead of simply being plot devices in stories.

Except for the fact Faith that nothing has been presented that is not observable facts. For example "The nearly 40 major sedimentary rock layers exposed in the Grand Canyon and in the Grand Canyon National Park area range in age from about 200 million to nearly 2 billion years old. " is fact and can be supported by counting the major (note the term major, there are far more than 40 layers in reality) layers and the ages can be verified by a variety of techniques beginning with superposition (you do remember Steno's Principles don't you) and also by absolute dating methods like radiometric, luminescence, marker horizons and cosmogenic dating. Of course we would which is how all of the known flood deposits have been identified. Floods do leave evidence Faith and what floods don't do is sort materials and biological samples the way things exist in reality. Except of course there are folk who have actually examined the evidence and found it really is not just a flat rock (which seems to exist only in your imagination) but in fact fossil dunes with cross bedding. And don't forget those 14 or more known unconformities which are absolute and conclusive evidence that at one time they were at the surface and material was weathered and eroded away before the layers now on top of the unconformities were laid down. And yet once again you simply misrepresent what the Bible says. No where in the Bible does it say that the floods are denied out of Willful Ignorance; that too is simply another of your fantasies Faith. Remember many of us have actually read the Bible and believe it actually says what it says.

I will admit that if you really want to you can stretch that to meet your needs however that has nothing to do with the other parts I pointed out.Can you address the other parts of the post?

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Faith writes:

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Absolute screaming nonsense, just the usual ridiculous flat-out assertion without the slightest bit of actual evidence. The way all evolution and Old Earth stuff is presented. It's announced as fact, not even a "geologists believe..." to give it a veneer of credibility. This is how the public is treated by this kind of science, meaning the kind that CAN'T be proved, the historical stuff that is all imaginative guesswork. Even the hard sciences aren't presented with this degree of flat-out dogma.

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Except for the fact Faith that nothing has been presented that is not observable facts. For example "The nearly 40 major sedimentary rock layers exposed in the Grand Canyon and in the Grand Canyon National Park area range in age from about 200 million to nearly 2 billion years old. " is fact and can be supported by counting the major (note the term major, there are far more than 40 layers in reality) layers and the ages can be verified by a variety of techniques beginning with superposition (you do remember Steno's Principles don't you) and also by absolute dating methods like radiometric, luminescence, marker horizons and cosmogenic dating.

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Faith writes:

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Bla bla bla bla bla. The "warm shallow seas" are determined by the sediment of the rock and perhaps fossil contents. If the sediment was simply transported and dumped you'd never figure it out would you?

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Of course we would which is how all of the known flood deposits have been identified. Floods do leave evidence Faith and what floods don't do is sort materials and biological samples the way things exist in reality.

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Faith writes:

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It's a flat rock, not dunes.

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Except of course there are folk who have actually examined the evidence and found it really is not just a flat rock (which seems to exist only in your imagination) but in fact fossil dunes with cross bedding. And don't forget those 14 or more known unconformities which are absolute and conclusive evidence that at one time they were at the surface and material was weathered and eroded away before the layers now on top of the unconformities were laid down.

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Edited by jar, : include all the stuff Faith did not address.

Yet what you claim is a lie explains all the evidence seen in reality and is supported by every branch of science and every investigative method and by every new technology that is developed while the Biblical Flood cannot explain the ordering of biological samples found or the ordering of geological samples found or varves or marine sedimentation layers or multiple unconformities or alternating terrestrial and marine environments or buried fossil sand dunes or really anything.Edited by jar, : add ordering of

The explanation is actually twofold, first to point out that the oldest layers do show their age and the second to remind you that weathering and erosion only happen at the surface.Lets address the first. The oldest layers show that they have undergone metamorphism and the actual composition of the rocks has changed. The composition of the final product can also give additional information; the presence of particular mineral crystals can show the temperature that existed. Metamorphism happens at temperatures between 150C (over 300 degrees F) to around 200C (392 degrees F) which are temperatures not found at the surface. High pressure is also required, about 1500 BAR (over 20,000 pounds per square inch) which again simply never happens at the surface. A third indicator of age are the presence of intrusive magma; an intrusion must be younger than the surrounding material.The second issue is related. Erosion and weathering happen only at the surface. Things that are buried cannot erode or weather. It is only after the oldest rocks are formed, then buried, then undergo metamorphism and then ALL of the overlying material weathered and eroded away to bring the oldest rocks back to the surface that they can get weathered and eroded. That means the material had to first get buried far enough to undergo metamorphism and then additional time to raise the whole column up and erode and weather away all the overlying material that we can expect to see any signs of erosion on the oldest rocks.All that takes extremely long periods of time. It really is that simple.Edited by jar, : that ----> than

Once again, that is simply a truly silly assertion. No honest person could confuse a Wiki with dogma; particularly when a Wiki entry is subject to constant public review and editing. In fact it is the complete opposite (as is science) of dogma.Perhaps you do not know what dogma is Faith. Again, that is simply a truly silly assertion. The observations actually exist. The fossils exist. The fossils exist in the geological samples. The geological column does demonstrate superposition. The absolute and relative age readings and tests exist. they are all facts Faith, none are suppositions. Yet you cannot and have not been able to show why any assumptions are bad or why any facts are not as presented.

How does your flood explain vertical stacks of millions of alternating light colored and dark colored, fine grained the coarse grained layers?How does your flood explain the biological sampling found in reality?How does your flood explain the White Cliffs of Dover or the other British Chalk deposits?How does your flood explain cross bedded sand dunes?

Yes, we know that you make such claims but you never seem to be able to provide any support for those assertions and of course reality shows that you are once again wrong.We know the origins of chalk and what it is made from and it would be impossible even in your fantasy world before the flood to create such massive columns of chalk in the few years you allow before the flood and certainly impossible to create such massive columns in the year of the flood. In addition, the thousands of years of sea erosion since the flood has not been able to move the chalk deposits anywhere.No Faith, the Biblical Flood stories cannot explain the chalk deposits.So once again:How does your flood explain vertical stacks of millions of alternating light colored and dark colored, fine grained the coarse grained layers?How does your flood explain the biological sampling found in reality?How does your flood explain the White Cliffs of Dover or the other British Chalk deposits?How does your flood explain cross bedded sand dunes?

Well, of course reality shows that not all strata are flat layers but the chalk cliffs generally are. And while there is no flood mechanism that can explain such nice flat layers without the micro layering seen in other big flat layers such as salt beds (yet another thing the Biblical floods cannot explain) the Biblical flood once again fails miserably as an explanation. In fact it is absolutely impossible for a one year even like the picayune Biblical flood stories describe to produce anything like the chalk deposits.However the conventional geological and biological theories do explain the chalk beds.So once again:How does your flood explain vertical stacks of millions of alternating light colored and dark colored, fine grained the coarse grained layers?How does your flood explain the biological sampling found in reality?How does your flood explain the White Cliffs of Dover or the other British Chalk deposits?How does your flood explain cross bedded sand dunes?

Faith, the conventional theory does not expect features to be global; the really pathetic theory is the Global Flood.