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Author
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Topic: The God That Paul Marketed Over Time.
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 75 of 267 (794138)
11-10-2016 11:00 AM
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Reply to: Message 73 by Phat
11-10-2016 9:48 AM
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Re: Works vs Grace
Phat writes: [qs-ringo]Your interpretation about Jesus existing from the beginning is nonsense.[/ringo] Thats the basic belief of most of Christianity. Your science mind and its insistence on evidence notwithstanding.
It's nonsense, your belief and the belief of any number of Christians notwithstanding. If there was any sense to it, it wouldn't have to be a belief.
Phat writes: The whole point of the belief of Paul hinged on the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Of the freedom we have to no longer be shackled to a bunch of laws and customs and that such trappings are not indicative to our standing before God.
And yet Christians are shackled to the biggest law of all and the biggest penalty of all, the need to believe versus eternal punishment.
Phat writes: Your standing before God---as Paul markets it---is based on your trust in Jesus Christ.
No it isn't. Matthew 25. Your standing before God is based on how you treat the least of His brethren. How you treat them MAY be based on your faith in Jesus or it may not be. Paul agreed that faith without works is dead. If you don't do the works, you don't have the faith; you're just spouting, "Lord! Lord!" in vain. The works are the criteria on which you are judged. The faith is only ONE way to get the works done.
Phat writes: The guy had no say when he switched sides. It was done to him and for him.
That's another empty belief.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 73 by Phat, posted 11-10-2016 9:48 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 76 by jar, posted 11-10-2016 11:26 AM | | ringo has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 80 of 267 (794251)
11-12-2016 10:50 AM
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Reply to: Message 77 by Phat
11-11-2016 7:23 AM
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Re: Magnifying Glass On Paul
Phat writes: In short-- I feel that Paul's writings are best examined with a faith lens rather than a science lens. Does anyone disagree?
Faith and examination are mutually exclusive. If you're examining your faith, you don't have faith. At best, you're wishing you had some.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 77 by Phat, posted 11-11-2016 7:23 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 81 by Phat, posted 11-12-2016 1:26 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 82 of 267 (794268)
11-13-2016 1:09 PM
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Reply to: Message 81 by Phat
11-12-2016 1:26 PM
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Re: Magnifying Glass On Paul
Phat writes: I dont care so much whether John wrote John or whether Fred wrote John. My question is more about the intentions and the source of inspiration for the author.
You're going to have to make up your mind. You've been saying that the messenger is more important than the message but now you're saying that you don't care who wrote the message down. Where do you draw the line? How many intermediaries don't you care about?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 81 by Phat, posted 11-12-2016 1:26 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 83 by Phat, posted 11-13-2016 4:16 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 84 of 267 (794301)
11-14-2016 10:36 AM
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Reply to: Message 83 by Phat
11-13-2016 4:16 PM
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Re: Magnifying Glass On Paul
Phat writes: I dont care who the human author is as long as the message is inspired of and by the Holy Spirit.
How do you know about the message except through human messengers?
Phat writes: His death, burial, and resurrection is in fact the message.
That`s a pretty worthless "message".
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 83 by Phat, posted 11-13-2016 4:16 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 85 by jar, posted 11-14-2016 10:49 AM | | ringo has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 102 of 267 (794731)
11-22-2016 12:04 PM
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Reply to: Message 101 by Phat
11-22-2016 12:00 PM
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Re: Courtroom of Logic Reason and Reality
Phat writes: The thing that makes these conversations difficult is the idea of God as a concept of the human mind and refusing to factor in personal belief.
Personal belief IS a concept of the human mind. The difference between belief and reality is that belief is ONLY a concept of the mind.
Phat writes: Being an impartial observer works ok with our own mind, but when probing the mind of the universe, it detaches us from our Creator.
The idea that there is a creator is only in our own mind.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 101 by Phat, posted 11-22-2016 12:00 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 108 of 267 (794741)
11-23-2016 2:24 PM
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Reply to: Message 106 by Phat
11-23-2016 11:30 AM
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Re: Courtroom of Logic Reason and Reality
Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
No. The wisdom of the world is all we have, whether it purports to come from God or not.
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
Notice the distinction between the "foolishness of what was preached" and the salvation of those who believe. Matthew 25 makes the same distinction: those who REALLY believe practice what they believe - they bear fruit; those who preach foolishness never knew Him. Ironically, pretending to "know" Him is the exact way NOT to know Him.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 106 by Phat, posted 11-23-2016 11:30 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 109 by Phat, posted 11-24-2016 10:19 AM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 111 of 267 (794752)
11-24-2016 10:51 AM
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Reply to: Message 109 by Phat
11-24-2016 10:19 AM
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Re: Courtroom of Logic Reason and Reality
Phat writes: The wisdom of the world is all you have if you don't have Christ.
No. The wisdom of the world is all you have, period. It's the wisdom of the world that's telling you everything you think you know about Christ - the same as the wisdom of the world is telling you that hydrogen burns.
Phat writes: Matthew 25 is another topic.
Matthew 25 is Jesus (supposedly) telling you the criteria on which you will be judged. Why would you let Paul's second-hand message(s) supersede that? Why would you even read the Philippians' mail?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 109 by Phat, posted 11-24-2016 10:19 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 112 by Phat, posted 11-24-2016 12:39 PM | | ringo has replied | | | Message 114 by Phat, posted 11-29-2016 6:27 AM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 118 of 267 (794871)
11-30-2016 2:12 PM
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Reply to: Message 112 by Phat
11-24-2016 12:39 PM
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Re: Courtroom of Logic Reason and Reality
Phat writes: Why should i trust the message that tells me at times that the Bible is totally the imagination of men...and then a few posts later tell me that Matthew 25 is a more direct message than any 2nd hand information?
You're the one who thinks the Bible has some relevance. I'm just pointing out to you what it actually says.
Phat writes: Christianity is about what we do. It is irrelevant what we believe.
I've explained this to you many, many times: The actions are the demonstration of the belief. If you don't act, you don't really believe.
Phat writes: The audience at the time of Matthew 25 was unaware of any concept or fulfilled promise of a Savior. They literally would be judged only on what they did.
Indeed. That promise was made up later.
Phat writes: ringo writes: Why would you let Paul's second-hand message(s) supersede that?
Because Paul obtained first hand information from the same source that taught us Matthew 25.
That doesn't answer the question. What did Paul change? And why?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 112 by Phat, posted 11-24-2016 12:39 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 119 of 267 (794873)
11-30-2016 2:18 PM
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Reply to: Message 114 by Phat
11-29-2016 6:27 AM
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Re: Belief over Evidence.
Phat writes: It is Christ who is telling me the difference between the wisdom of the world and the wisdom of Him.
Not so. It is earthly preachers who are telling you.
Phat writes: The problem is a lack of belief.
You have a belief in belief but you don't understand what belief means.
Phat writes: The evidence confirms the idea that John was persuading people to place trust and reliance upon the idea of a Risen Christ and not just on the memory of a dead Jewish teacher.
What evidence? Your own definition makes a distinction between reliance and mere credence. Mere credence is saying, "Lord! Lord!" - pretending to believe. Reliance is making your belief a part of your day to day life - your belief becomes action.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 114 by Phat, posted 11-29-2016 6:27 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 120 by Phat, posted 12-03-2016 2:00 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 121 of 267 (795977)
12-20-2016 10:49 AM
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Reply to: Message 120 by Phat
12-03-2016 2:00 PM
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Re: Belief over Evidence.
1. pisteuo NT:4100, "to believe," also "to be persuaded of," and hence, "to place confidence in, to trust," signifies, in this sense of the word, reliance upon, not mere credence.
"Not mere credence".
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 120 by Phat, posted 12-03-2016 2:00 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 122 by Phat, posted 12-20-2016 10:51 AM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 123 of 267 (795980)
12-20-2016 10:54 AM
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Reply to: Message 122 by Phat
12-20-2016 10:51 AM
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Re: Belief over Evidence.
Phat writes: Evidence is not a prerequisite although I might argue that each and every believer has been convinced.
Of course evidence is not a prerequisite. If there is evidence, there is no need for belief. Believers are convinced by something other than evidence.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 122 by Phat, posted 12-20-2016 10:51 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 124 by GDR, posted 12-21-2016 1:41 AM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 126 of 267 (796036)
12-21-2016 10:40 AM
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Reply to: Message 124 by GDR
12-21-2016 1:41 AM
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Re: Belief over Evidence.
GDR writes: Evidence may or may not be conclusive. If it isn't conclusive the any conclusion you might draw is a belief.
Evidence versus no evidence IS conclusive. The conclusion may turn out to be wrong - no conclusion is final - but ANY evidence-based conclusion is superior to an unevidenced belief.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 124 by GDR, posted 12-21-2016 1:41 AM | | GDR has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 135 of 267 (796103)
12-22-2016 10:58 AM
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Reply to: Message 128 by NoNukes
12-21-2016 6:29 PM
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Re: Belief over Evidence.
NoNukes writes: The knife came from your kitchen and also has your fingerprints (and several others) on it. Is that conclusive?
Yes. The conclusion is that you may not be guilty.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 128 by NoNukes, posted 12-21-2016 6:29 PM | | NoNukes has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 154 of 267 (796262)
12-27-2016 10:55 AM
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Reply to: Message 152 by Phat
12-26-2016 2:08 PM
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Re: Works vs Grace
Phat writes: Its nonsense if one is an atheist. It is certainly not nonsense to a believer.
It's nonsense if you read the text. A particular interpretation of the text will "make sense" to anybody who believes the interpretation. If you believe it's talking about the Tooth Fairy, that interpretation will "make sense" to you.
Phat writes: And I have told you time after time that we need to also accept Jesus into our hearts and minds for it is only through communion that reconciliation and transformation can take place.
And I have asked you time after time why people who claim to have that communion and reconciliation and transformation don't SHOW the transformation.
Phat writes: I would think, however, that God would be more impressed with someone who admitted they needed His help to change...
It isn't a question of whether or not we "need" His help. It's a question of whether He needs ours. Remember that Noah had to build his own ark.
Phat writes: ... rather than one who simply shows up and asks "yo, where is the party"?
It's the faith-only crowd that's offering a get-out-of-hell-free party. All I've offered is blood, sweat, toil and tears.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 152 by Phat, posted 12-26-2016 2:08 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 155 by Phat, posted 12-27-2016 1:44 PM | | ringo has replied | | | Message 159 by Phat, posted 12-28-2016 10:04 AM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 161 of 267 (796372)
12-29-2016 10:49 AM
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Reply to: Message 155 by Phat
12-27-2016 1:44 PM
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Re: Belief And Action
Phat writes: Paul seems to insist on separation of believers from unbelievers.
So did Jesus in Matthew 25. He pointed out that those who profess belief are not real believers. Those who act on their beliefs are.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 155 by Phat, posted 12-27-2016 1:44 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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